Can the .....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by wpe3bql, Jun 13, 2015.

  1. wpe3bql

    wpe3bql
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    .... immutable God ever change His will for an individual's life??

    IOW, how precisely does one know, e.g., when there is, "A time to love, and a time to hate" [Ecclesiastes 3:8]?
     
  2. InTheLight

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    Isaiah 38:1-5

    1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”

    2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

    4 Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.
     
  3. wpe3bql

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    Fine.

    Do you personally anyone to whom this happens/ed today (or least in recent years)?

    Did God actually change His own mind, or was His people's?

    You never actually touched on when God tells someone when it's time to hate and/or to love.

    Not being super-critical here. But, OTOH, I've heard folks say something to the effect that Christians should absolutely NEVER rely on "feelings" for ANYTHING in this life.

    So.....
     
  4. InTheLight

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    No, but anecdotal knowledge neither proves or disproves anything.

    The text says God changed his mind.

    So your question seems to be - - does God's will change necessitating a person go from loving someone to hating them? Is that correct?
     
  5. wpe3bql

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    Well, I suppose Ecclesiastes simply says what it says.

    As far as "hating" goes, Psalm 5:5 does say, "Thou [God] hatest all workers of iniquity."

    So ....................
     
  6. Van

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    This thread deals, in my opinion, with a well accepted mistaken view of God's immutability. What does it mean for God to "change His mind."
    People holding a certain doctrine (exhaustive determinism) do not believe God makes conditional covenants with people. He does not say, or does not actually mean, that if we do this, He will do that, but if we do something else, He will do this other thing. For example, if we repent, He will relent, but if not, He will destroy us.
     
  7. DHK

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    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Anyone who says God changes His mind......is not speaking of the biblical God.
     
  9. Van

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    You have got to love them folks. Scripture, they claim does not mean what it says! Exhaustive determinism anybody?
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Malachi 3 :6 is very plain isn't it dr.van. t?????
     
  11. DHK

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    Mal.3:6 "I change not," simply speaks of the Lord's immutability. That is one attribute out of hundreds of attributes of the Lord. Why do you fixate on just one attribute.
    What about mercy? Does the Lord show mercy?

    2Ki 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
    2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
    2Ki 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
    2Ki 20:4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
    2Ki 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
    2Ki 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
    2Ki 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

    I am sure you are acquainted with the story here.
    Did God change his mind? He told Hezekiah he was going to die, but then Hezekiah prayed. God answered his prayer, healed him, and allowed him to live fifteen more years. Did God change his mind?
     
  12. McCree79

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    The only way God changed his mind, is if he didn't know what Hezekiah would do. Hezekiah would have to be able to surprise God. Otherwise, no He didn't change his mind. He knew what He would do and what Hezekiah would do. Everything worked for His glory.
     
  13. DHK

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    God is omniscient. We cant't out-guess God.
    The hard determinism of Calvinism is wrong. Based on his omniscience, comes predestination, and then based on that, there is nothing more we can do because it is all predetermined any way.

    Tell me: If Hezekiah would not have prayed would God have healed him?
    Yes or no?

    If yes, (predetermination) then there is no use in praying, witnessing, evangelization, obeying the Great Commission, etc. Everything is predetermined. The elect will be elected no matter what we do. Just sit by in your easy chair and let God do all the work. Why should we involve ourselves. We will probably just get in God's way in the first place. Right?

    But Hezekiah did pray. And Isaiah told him that God heard him and answered his prayer. Why is that?
     
  14. McCree79

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    How could God have changed his mind if he knew what would happen?

    Calvinism doesn't teach the "hard determinism" as you state. But that isn't the subject anyway.

    God didn't change his mind. He knew what he would do, he knew what Hezekiah would do. An Omniscient God has no need to change his mind.
     
  15. Van

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    Am I a doctor? Nope. So either misrepresentation or an effort to disparage. Take your pick.

    Does God make conditional covenants? Yes. Does God say what He means? Yes. Does God mean what He says? Yes.

    The way this is dealt with is this other doctrine requires God did not mean what He said. Or in other words, an agenda driven interpretation. Exhaustive determinism anyone?
     
  16. JonC

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    Hi Icon.

    How do you deal with Isaiah 38:1-5?
     
  17. DHK

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    Yes God knew. Man can't outguess God because of his omniscience.
    The question still remains: If Hezekiah did not pray, would God have added 15 years to his life; would he have healed him after already declaring that he was going to die?
     
  18. McCree79

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    I see no reason why he would have healed him. However, God will show mercy on whom he shows mercy.....so, I could be wrong.
     
  19. DHK

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    Right. He said he was going to die. He made that pronouncement. Had Hezekiah not prayed, and still God would have shown mercy, then God would violate his own word and integrity. The reason he showed mercy is because Hezekiah prayed. IOW, God changed his mind toward Hezekiah and showed him mercy instead of judgment.

    His omniscience has nothing to do with this. Even though he knew this would happen, from man's perspective God changed his mind and did so because man sought him in prayer.
     
  20. JamesL

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    In the incident with Hezekiah, there is an absolute conundrum for the fatalist/determinist view.

    God told Hezekiah through Isaiah ----> "You Will Die and Not Live"
    Hezekiah prayed, God relented.

    If we hold that God knew Hezekiah would pray, only making it appear that God reacted, then we must conclude that God lied. Why?

    Because that would mean God made an emphatic statement, knowing full well that He was not going to see it through.


    btw, I do believe God knows the end from the beginning, which our finite minds are incapable of processing in a scenario like this one


    .
     
    #20 JamesL, Jun 18, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2015

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