Can We Make A Non-Elect... Elect?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Sep 9, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Would somebody please give me a scripture where it says we can make a non elect who God did not give to to his Son to die for elect?... You are either embraced in election or you are not!... That is not Brother Glen that is Bible and as much as we would like to give everybody a chance according to our human nature and make fair... fair is that the way God operates?... Are we questioning God?... Will not the author of the universe do right?... Will he leave any out that he gave his Son to save?... Will his Son lose any?... The doctrine of election whether we like it or not is biblical or the word would not be in scripture... It is not a word that Calvin invented to eliminate those from the portal of Heaven he didn't like... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  2. Me2

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    Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye
    should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.


    this isnt prophecy. It is a statement of those living by law within the new covenant.

    all believers chosen of the father are imparted with his sons spirit. afterwards some choose to live by faith and others choose to live by law.

    this is in the plans of God for his children to operate "against each other". to compete against one another.

    yes if they live by law they are being disobedient. they fall within a set parameter of living in error if they do not desire to live by faith before God.

    Yet they still contain the spirit of Gods son within them and they still are being used of their father to create jealousy towards their counterparts... those who live by faith.

    not all chosen of the father is intended to "inherit the kingdom of heaven". yet all of Gods chosen will end up in heaven.

    obedient and disobedient. jew and gentile

    2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


    God doesnt speak of those that he doesnt choose to impart his sons spirit within while they are physically alive. but he does specifically speak about those whom he chooses to be in his adopted family.

    and in this physical life Gods not fair. He doesnt pick everyone to impart his spirit within. yet your not inquiring about what happens to "all" after they shed their physical bodies and are judged before their creator (who is infinite love)..

    Me2
     
  3. Yelsew

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    The time of the Gentiles?

    The ungodliness of Jacob?

    Jacob is God's elect from the earliest records that preceded Jacob, Jesus was born out of Jacob, Jesus is a Jew, yet the Jews rejected Him!

    This rejection by the elect, opened the time of the Gentiles, and the Gentiles are God's "optionals". If you are not descended in lineage from Jacob, you are gentile. Therefore you are not "elect" but you are saved through your faith in God's lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world.

    By believing in Jesus, you have received the promise of eternal life through faith that Jesus gave to "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM" (John 3:16). That WHOSOEVER was first directed to and includes those of the Father's Elect the house of Israel. But because the House where Jesus was born rejected Him, that same promise was extended to and includes ALL the Gentiles who hear of Jesus and Believe in Him. So, any of the House of Israel who believes in Jesus are believers out of the elect, ALL other believers are out of the Gentiles.

    By believing we are made "elect".
     
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    They are elect therefore they believe!... Quit putting the cart before the horse Yelsew you can't pull that wagon!... Romans 9:11 & 16 proves you are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Glen, do you not understand what Paul us telling the Gentile Romans?

    The house of Israel is 'the elect' for the Father's sake, but they are enemies to the Gospel. The House of Israel has been THE ELECT from the earliest records. Why do you refuse to understand that?

    Believers in Jesus become "the elect" through their own personal faith in Jesus. It is by our faith that we become the children of God. We choose to become children and God accepts ALL who choose Him. Faith in God, Father and Son, is what makes one a member of the family of God. The House of Israel has that option, but God chose them first to be his ELECT out of all the peoples of the earth, God chose the Jews. God allows any who will submit themselves to become Jews through circumcision in obedience to God.

    God allows ALL, who will "circumcise" themselves through faith in His only begotten Son, to become the Children of God, thus His elect.
     
  6. Frogman

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    The day we can change a leopard's spots. Otherwise, no.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. tannerml

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    The house of Israel is 'the elect' for the Father's sake, but they are enemies to the Gospel. The House of Israel has been THE ELECT from the earliest records. Why do you refuse to understand that?

    Believers in Jesus become "the elect" through their own personal faith in Jesus. It is by our faith that we become the children of God. We choose to become children and God accepts ALL who choose Him. Faith in God, Father and Son, is what makes one a member of the family of God. The House of Israel has that option, but God chose them first to be his ELECT out of all the peoples of the earth, God chose the Jews. God allows any who will submit themselves to become Jews through circumcision in obedience to God.

    God allows ALL, who will "circumcise" themselves through faith in His only begotten Son, to become the Children of God, thus His elect.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Sloppy exegesis. You have misquoted Romans and as such reached a completely wrong conclusion.

    Romans says, "beloved for the fathers' sakes" not the "Father's sake" as you said. It makes a difference. This part of the passage is referring to the fathers, the Jewish fathers, not the Father. There is a lot of other stuff wrong here but this in itself is enough refute this erroneous interpretation.
     
  8. Yelsew

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    Thanks for pointing out my mistake, but after further study, I don't see how that mistake changes the idea being conveyed.
    I stand by this statement even though I had misquoted "father's". The house of Israel remains the elect of God whether for the sake of thier fathers or whether for the sake of God the Father. They are the elect.
    Do you disagree? State your basis for disagreement.
    Some will have difficulty with this because the words are not exactly what is written in the scriptures, however the effect is the same.

    Paul tells the Romans that the House of Israel is "the elect" and all of them will be saved, and that because of their disobedience, the Gentiles get the opportunity to be saved through faith in Jesus. What's so difficult about that?
     
  9. Frogman

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    I am having difficulty...if you don't mind, can you align your last statement with scripture? Just enough so that it sounds close to something that is actually there.

    Otherwise, you must know that not all of Israel are of Israel, but the seed is counted for the promise...or something like that. Having said this, then we see that not all of Israel will be saved, but all of Israel who are of the promise, and the seed not as of many, but of one [being Christ] and typified in Isaac [you know the miraculous birth. And what was the promise? That Abraham received?

    Well, he received Isaac from the dead in a picture, he hesitated not to obey God because he knew God was able to bring him back again from the dead.

    BTW, does the Bible say that Abraham was declared righteous before or after circumcision? Just curious...because if it is before then he received circumcision as a seal of the covenant and not in order to be sealed in the covenant...wouldn't that be right? Or am I reading too much into the scriptures?

    No, I am certain of it, then the circumcision became a covenant sign of all Israel, to be cut off from the nation if not circumcised. Remember Moses set on his merry way to follow the calling of God and go before Pharoah and an angel met him in the way and wrestled with him to the death? What happened...how'd Moses get out of that one?

    O Thou Bloody Husband, The Servant of Jehovah, Thou Alone has been freed from Your Servitude, but for the love of Your Spouse and Her children You have bid Thy Master to Bore a Hole in Your Ear Upon the DoorPost and forever now You are bound by Your Covenant...

    Read Ps. 45.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I have a question for you Yelsew... I am not clear on how one circumcises themselves by faith... I would also further like to know how one circumcises their own heart :confused: ... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  11. Yelsew

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    Brother Glen, Circumcision of the heart is not a surgical procedure, it is a spiritual procedure that occurs when one believes in Jesus or for some, believing only in God the Father. (Knowing the Father is Knowing the Son and vice versa).

    Just as physical circumcision is the cutting away of useless foreskin, spiritual circumcision is the cutting way of useless spiritual ideas and beliefs and of course, sins that keep us in bondage.

    Scriptures tell us that all mankind has knowledge of both good and evil because the tree that Adam and Eve ate from is the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". Therefore, we human's inherently know good and evil, but because sin (the useless foreskin) dominates our nature, "hiding the good", we must "cut it away" and we do that through confession of sins and subsequent repentance from them. As one "cuts away sins", there are less and less of them to dominate us and hide the good that is also inherently within us.

    No one will confess sins unless they have faith in the one who can and does forgive sins, and who cleanses us from all unrighteousness. If you do not believe there is a forgiver, you cannot believe you can be forgiven.

    This too, applies to sins we commit against our neighbor! If we do not confess our transgressions to the one we transgressed against how can we receive the victim's forgiveness? How can our relationship with the victim ever be restored? By transgressing against him/her we have builded a wall that separates us. If we are the transgressor, we are the wall builder and it is up to us to destroy the wall and restore the former trust. If we are the victim, it is our responsiblility to forgive, especially when the perpetrator of the transgression confesses, thus seeking our forgiveness.

    God has already given us the authority and the ability, and in truth demands that we do all we can to restore relationships through confession of sins, receiving forgiveness, restoration of damages as applicable, and re-establishing of trust.

    First comes Belief in God (confessing who and what Jesus is), then Confession of our own sins (as the Holy Spirit reveals them to us), Receiving from God forgiveness, and then the Cleansing through God's restoration of the relationship! God demands that we mere mortals do the confessing, do the receiving, and do as much of the restoration as humanly possible! That of course, requires that we believe in God and what he says we are to do!

    We circumcise our hearts by believing in our creator-redeemer, then in obedience, by confessing our sins, and receiving forgiveness and cleansing, then we do the good works that lead to the restoration of relationships.

    How does one restore relationships? Well that is a whole new topic now isn't it?
     

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