Can you really BLAME them?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    If Calvinism is true, can your really blame the non-elect reprobate for their being rebellious against God?

    After all look at the facts of the matter:

    1. God punished them for the sin of Adam by making them be born totally unable to repent even when invited by God to do so.
    2. God didn't really love them (salvifically), in fact he hated them from birth (i.e. Esau).
    3. God didn't grant them what they needed to be saved.
    4. God predetermined they would spend an eternity being tortured in hell prior to their even being born.​

    Can you really blame them for rebelling and hating that? Wouldn't you if you weren't chosen?
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    Yes.....They are responsible to worship and serve God. They do not want to,they desire sin and wickedness.
    3This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

    God is not unfair ,or unjust
     
    #2 Iconoclast, Mar 21, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2012
  3. SolaSaint

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    Maybe there is a difference between Calvinists and hyper-Calvinists, would you think?
     
  4. HeirofSalvation

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    You cannot blame them, They were BORN utterly wicked, they were born depraved. They were born without the possibility of doing ANY good (acc. Calvinism). God had no intention whatsoever of ever bestowing any form of saving grace, enabling grace, irresistible grace, Grace Kelly grace or any form of grace (of any signifigance anyway). Personally, i have always thought given Calvinism it is rather unsporting for God to create the condemned, it were truly better that they had never been born. A lonely life outside of God's fellowship ending eternally in suffering and torment for doing that which they had no other option to do is their lot. But the blame, so called, is God's and God's alone. Unless you begin to redefine the meaning of words and use them in a sense which no other normal person would use them can it be placed anywhere else. :tear:
     
  5. HeirofSalvation

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    Hyper Calvinist: logically consistent and unapologetic Calvinist
    Calvinist: logically in-consistent Calvinist (no Reductios here please!)
     
  6. jonathan.borland

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    Of course not. And that's just one reason why Calvinism isn't true.
     
  7. HeirofSalvation

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    Then again Skan, God's offer to repent Acc. Calvinism is at best a disingenuous one inasmuch as God has already Sovereignly decreed they not do so. If they were to repent (an impossibility) it would do them no good anyways as their sins were not paid for on the cross either.
     
  8. preacher4truth

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    Those poor 'innocent' sinners...can you really blame them? :wavey:

    Maybe a Superhero will come save them, they're innocent you know, and they have rights too.
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    Thank you, I am a poor sinner, and I do have a superhero, his name is Jesus.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    I guess they are responsible to worship in the same way the stone are responsible to cry out, right? The only difference is that the stones won't feel the pain of burning for all eternity? Is that right? If not, how is it different specifically?

    And why don't they WANT to? Why CAN'T they WANT to?

    That is not what the OP is about. It's about not blaming people who are born hated by God and destined for eternal torture for hating Him back. Wouldn't you hate someone who created you for torture so that He could be glorified?
     
  11. Aaron

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    Paul has already answered this, your arbitrary and self-contradicting reconstructions notwithstanding.
     
  12. Cypress

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    I think I would unless my greatest desire was to be destroyed and tortured.
     
  13. Skandelon

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    Either you believe God has preselected a certain number of people to irresistibly save to the neglect of all the rest who He chose to punish with a Totally depraved nature from birth due to Adam's sin, or you don't.
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Question beg much? :rolleyes:

    You think Paul answers my question, but in reality Paul is answering a MUCH different question. He is answering the question about why God's Chosen ones (Israel) are being hardened in their rebellion while the unclean Gentiles (who weren't chosen by God) are being grafted in. You should study Romans 9 through 11 sometime. It is really interesting.
     
  15. Aaron

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    In the words of The Gipper, "There you go again." Paul's meaning is clear. You just don't like it.

    In another place, Paul mentions Esau. Whom does he represent?
     
  16. Skandelon

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    I don't like your false application, true. But I love the truth of Paul's actual intent.

    Esau represents all those of Israel who weren't chosen for a noble purposes in God's redemptive plan for humanity. Paul, an Israelite, was chosen for a noble purpose, just like Jacob was chosen for the noble purpose of being the lineage of Christ. Other Jewish Pharisees, who were just as rebellious as Paul, weren't chosen to be his apostle. Paul hadn't done anything good or bad to deserve being chosen to carry the message of redemption to the world. The other Pharisees were left in their rebellion, blinded by God, cut off from the vine, chosen for 'ignoble purposes.' It is this truth to which the reader objects.

    But Paul explains God can take from the same lump of Israel and make vessels for noble purposes and others for common use, but later goes on to show that even those hardened in their rebellion may be 'provoked to envy' and saved if they 'leave their unbelief.'
    Read Romans 11:14ff. It is all very clear.
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    The fact that Adam fell does not change mans responsibility before God.
    Your constant questioning of God is troublesome;

    like here;
    Your constant posting like this indicates you do not like a holy God punishing sin.This is a cause for concern.Are you okay with the judgement of God.
     
  18. Skandelon

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    Again, this begs the question that your view properly represents God, the very point up for debate. Again, the LOWEST form of debate. We all know you think you know God better than us but continually pointing that out doesn't serve the purpose of an actual debate of the issues.

    Of course I am. In fact, my sermon on Easter is on that very subject. In fact I'll provide the outline for you:

     
  19. Skandelon

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    Icon, I'm not questioning the judgement of God, I'm questing the claims of Calvinism and asking the question if you can really blame people for hating a God who hates them so much He has predetermined to torture them for all eternity? Tell me you wouldn't hate Him too if you were non-elect.
     
  20. Aaron

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    Esau represents vain and profane persons, who despise their birthrights to satisfy their lusts. Surely you don't need the Scripture reference for that. It is all very clear.
     

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