Can you want to be saved and still not be saved?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    I watched this video from Paul Washer here and I'm not sure what to think of it.
    Is this sounds doctrine? Can you really want to be saved and God doesn't directly do it and first of all you have to cry for it for days or maybe longer? This sounds almost like earning your salvation.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=V4axy22oTkA
     
  2. Brother Bob

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    2Cr 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

    I would think these people had the want, before receiving salvation.

    BBob,
     
  3. xdisciplex

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    But if it is possible that you want to be saved and then first of all have to beg and cry for an unknown time before it actually happens then how do you even know it happened?
    Usually one assumes then when he asks he receives but if this is not the case then how does he know when he got saved? When something happens? A voice from the sky? A fulfilling with love? A feeling of peace?
    What if you have none of this? Then should we simply go on crying and begging on our knees simply assuming that we're not saved yet until something real happens?
    But what if it never happens? I just don't know if this is right. If you can have the sincere desire to get saved and God is up there saying "Sorry, but you cannot get saved yet, first of all you have to beg and cry and then maybe I will answer your prayer..." then this doesn't make sense to me.
     
  4. donnA

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    Spending days kneeling begging and crying pleading for salvation is simply not true. A person wants to be saved once God gives them the want to. No one ever had to plead for salvation, not if God wants people saved. This person is in actuality trying to earn his salvation by doing all the begging, pleading, crying, and kneeling(we can't forget you have to ahve that right physical position to be saved:BangHead: )
    No he is not right, scripture does not support him.
     
  5. xdisciplex

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    Hi donna, but then what about this girl?
    Was she deceived? What about her "experience"?
    Has she been saved all the time?
    Maybe she was saved before, too, and simply not happy and sinning but why should this imply that she cannot be saved? Can a christian not be unhappy and struggle with sin? I can also imagine that after listening to one of Washer's shocking messages (he seems to put much emphasis on, that fact that they are shocking) one might start to doubt his salvation. This isn't unlikely when a preacher preaches something scary and implies that many in the audience are actually going to hell.
     
  6. cowboymatt

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    2 Corinthians was written to Christians and that verse is talking about godly sorrow that will lead to repentance from sin (or to God) in the life a Christian that has sinned.

    As far as the original question, William Cowper, the writer of the great hymn "There is a Fountain Filled with Blood" was convinced that he was damned, despite all of the times he "converted" and repented. That is the problem with trying to live with the doctrine of election (I'm not saying that it is not a true doctrine, it is!); someone may be convinced that they are elect without actually being saved or damned even though they really are saved.

    It is safer to live life from our perspective (free will), not God's (election). Thus, choose to follow after Christ and continue to do so as far as you are concerned!
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    I think you make the mistake of many and assume that because it is the church of Corithians, that all were saved, which is far from the truth. If what you say is true then there are some pretty bad people that are saved and in the church. I believe God's church is clean, that is why Jesus came to take it out of the flesh and put it in the spirit.

    2Cr 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Did they lose their salvation and have to repent again to be saved again??? I have heard this argument before, but just does not make sense. IMO

    Act 26:20But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

    2Pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Why all the scriptures "What must I do to be saved", you telling me they did not want to be saved.

    I believe if a person never becomes sorrow over his or her sins, they will die and go to a devil's hell.

    Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

    Hbr 12:17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    This "sinners prayer salvation" is just too weak for me. I believe a person has to realize he is lost and in need of a Savior. Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, departing from evil is understanding. If a man sits and waits for the Lord to get him by the hair of the head and save him, I am afraid he will come up short.

    I teach people to repent and be born again, that they have sinned against God and need to seek Him. Seek the Lord while He may be found.

    Isa 55:7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    BBob,
     
    #7 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
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  8. Brother Bob

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    I always and still do say, if I miss heaven it will not be because I am not praying. Make it as sure as you can, for you only pass this way but once.

    BBob,
     
  9. donnA

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    Christians can certainly be unhappy and struggle with sin. I'm sure there are christians who doubt their salvation because of it too. But they are trusting in works for salvation, and not in God's grace and Jesus sacrifice alone.
    If experience runs contrary to scripture, then it is the experience that is a lie.
     
  10. donnA

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    Man's problem being they want to believe themselves rather then God, even though we do not fully understand God's way, it is still true.
     
  11. cowboymatt

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    Each time you read the word "salvation" in the Bible is not a time when heaven and hell are necessarily in view. The word soteria means more than that. It also means to be healthy, to be restored, to be saved from anything. We use the word "save" in this way too. I may be saved from death by a paramedic, that doesn't mean that I have accepted Jesus and will go to heaven!

    Since Paul is talking to Christians in 2 Corinthians, it follows naturally that the reference to godly sorrow leading to repentance unto salvation is not talking about eternal salvation. It is talking about God using guilt to restore his people, i.e., those whose ultimate salvation is assured, back to him. To read this text otherwise is to do a major injustice to the context and to completely miss Paul's point here.
     
  12. Alcott

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    Oh, that's the hell they will go to? And what else must they do to earn their way out of that fate?
     
  13. xdisciplex

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    The problem is simply if you have to feel sorry enough and seek God enough to get saved then how do you know you have done enough? Is this not again a works based salvation?

    oh you're not saved (yet) you have to seek harder and pray harder and beg harder, maybe even on your knees while hitting your back with a whiplash...

    Isn't this exactly going in this direction?
    Maybe this girl which said she had wanted to get saved 6 times before was emotinally unstable and grieved because of her sin but can she not be saved at the same time? Just because she woke up and then felt better does this mean that she cannot have been saved before? Maybe this experience simply made her feel better? There are many open questions here but the fact alone that you can make a person doubt her salvation by preaching such a message does not necessarily mean that she is not saved. I really don't know if this stuff is right. Why should an unsaved person even desire getting saved? Why should an unsaved person feel grief because of her sins like the person in Romans 6?
    Unless of course you believe that the person in Romans 6 is not a saved person.
    Or what if you are a christian and think that you are saved and then you have a time where you sin and totally depart from the right way then what do you do then? Are you no longer saved then and have to do everything all over and have to beg God long enough until he signals you that now you're saved again?

    Can you not be a christian and feel totally miserable about your sins like this girl did? I think it is at least possible that this girl was very frustrated over her sins, which I have also been, and simply felt like she cannot be saved when she acts like this and because of this she wanted to get really saved and maybe her experience which she had now gives her enough strength and motivation to "live right" now. But what does she do if she ever falls back into the same stuff? Then what does she do then? Does this mean she still wasn't saved and has to do it all again?
    I think this stuff can be dangerous. If you can only be a christian when everything is fine and you sin less every year and you're full of love then I'm no christian.
     
    #13 xdisciplex, Feb 12, 2008
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  14. Brother Bob

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    Do what the Lord told you to do, believe, repent and be born again. Is that too much to ask?? The Lord will do the saving, but you must believe.

    BBob,
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    And what salvation did it lead to here??? Where do you find "ultimate" salvation in scripture?

    Lot of difference between a paramedic and Jesus, don't you think?

    There were several other scriptures there also, besides the one you picked. I still believe it means eternal salvation.

    BBob,
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
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  16. EdSutton

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    That question is found but once as you quoted it, in Scripture, and is directly answered as well.
    Brother Bob, if I were to believe what you have written above that you believe, then I would have to conclude that most of the people in Scripture, who seem to be among the saved, including most of those Jesus spoke about were never saved in the first place. BTW, if sorrow is what is really required, why did not Esau find a place of repentance? The word says "he sought it carefully with tears". How much more sorrowful does one have to get?? Yes, many people are going to hell, according to how I read Scripture, but it is because they "believe not". (Jn. 3:18)

    "Cry me a river!" may be a great song title, but it does not necessarily have a single thing to do with getting saved. "Believe!", on the other hand...

    And I also find no record that Jesus ever imposed this "becomes sorrow" (sic) as any condition of salvation, to Nicodemus (Jn. 3); to the woman at the well of Sychar (Jn. 4); to the lame man at the pool (Jn.5); to those near Capernaum (Jn.6, esp v. 47); to those at the feast (Jn. 7); to the formerly blind man (Jn. 9:35-38); to the known 'sinner woman' in the Pharisee's house who cane to jesus (Lk. 78:37-50); to the blind beggar along the road to Jericho (Lk.18:35-43); to the thief on the cross (Lk. 23); to those John the Baptist preached to (Jn. 3:34-36); to those to whom the apostles preached, including Lydia and the jailer (Acts 16); to the multitude of 4000 (Ac. 4); those Philip preached to, including the Ethiopian eunuch (Ac.8); and Paul's own declaration that the righteousness of God is revealed by the gospel, and justification by faith is an integral part of the gospel in Rom. 1:16-18. Every one of 'em preached "believe/faith in the Lord", though!
    I thought that conviction of sin was part of the job description of the Holy Spirit, and ours was to preach the gospel to people, and not the other way around. I believe there are Scriptures to both effects.
    I knew I had that "job description" thing right! :thumbs:
    BTW, I do not preach any so-called "Sinner's prayer salvation", which I like to term as "decisionism", either. That is one of the most misused verses in Scripture, IMO, and does not refer to that at all, but is a request not for 'mercy', in the sense we normally use this, but for the Lord to be "propitiated" for him at the mercy seat, and in his stead.
    [Edited to add!] Nor do I preach and teach any "Mourner's Bench salvation", either. Both are a travesty of the gospel of salvation by faith. I'll add that I often say I do not preach any "Turn or burn!", "Forsake or bake!", "Try and cry or fry!" religion. What I do preach is salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, based on the sacrifice of His precious blood for my sins on Calvary!
    While there is certainly one sense in which we are to seek the Lord, as was Israel, in Isa. 55:6-7 (where for some reason, either you left out, or my quoting of your post caused it to be omitted) you left out the part of the verse that says "Call upon Him while He is near" (Is. 55:6b), just before Isa. 55:7, this is specifically said to that nation, and I would offer that one cannot "return to the LORD" unless one has already been with the LORD. One simply cannot return to a place one has never been!

    I would say this is referring not to one's personal salvation, but to Israel (and by application, us today) as disciples. The seeking always began with God, not us. From the time of Adam in the garden, it was the LORD God that sought Adam, not the other way around. It was the LORD that sought Jacob, as he slept. It was the Lord who sought Moses, at the burning bush. It was the LORD, through the prophets, who sought out Saul, David, and Hezekiah. It eas the Lord who sought out Paul on the road to Damascus, the same as today, culminating in the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    I'm glad He is the one who did the seeking, and not leaving it up to me.

    Ed
     
    #16 EdSutton, Feb 12, 2008
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  17. Alcott

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    Alrighrt, if you happened to come into a riot scene, you saw a man badly hurt who said he was sure he was dying, you may (I'm guessing) ask him if he is saved. If he says he is not sure, then you would probably ask him of he believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. If he says, "I do now," then croaks, is he saved? His words might indicate belief, but nothing indicates repentance; or even if so, is a half-second of remorse all that is required? how about a tenth?...
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    You spend all this time condemning me and then turn around and say you don't hold to the "sinners prayer" thing either, jeepers Ed..........

    I take it you believe we were lost from our mother's womb instead of when we come to know God and glorified Him not as God, we sinned. You must believe infants are on their way to hell also.

    I guess you don't believe these scriptures then:

    Deu 4:29But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find [him], if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

    Deu 4:30When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

    1Ch 16:10Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.

    Hbr 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. You do err bad Ed.
    I am glad I continue to diligently seek Him, and make my election and calling sure. Oh, thank you Lord for being there when I seek for thee!!!!

    There are far too many scriptures for me to list, that we seek the Lord. Ed you try to sound like you know more, but it turns out you may know less................:)

    I am glad the Lord provided the word so we all can read for ourselves.......... Don't you never seek the Lord in prayer Ed????

    Dan 9:3¶And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
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  19. Brother Bob

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    Salvation is not mine to give or yours. He would be in the hands of a merciful God, who would do right by Him. He is the only one who has the record, not me.

    I will say this, I would much rather he die saying "I believe in Jesus", than to die denying Him. I have stood over the death bed of several in my day, and died exactly as you said. Most they left me with some hope for them, but knowledge, No.

    I see your point Alcott, but the so called "sinners prayer" has turned into a tool for tithes.

    BBob,
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Feb 12, 2008
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  20. EdSutton

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    I never condemned you at all. I did disagree (as I have consistently) with some things you hold to. One of those seems to be that somehow a person must be sorry for their sins, before they can be saved. OK. Exactly how sorry is sorry enough? Saul/Paul was certainly 'sorry for his lifestyle' after he was saved. Peter wept bitterly after he had denied the Lord, long after he was saved. (BTW, Paul cried over the lost and the churches, from what I read, not over his past life.) The point is, and II Cor. 7:10 tells this, and I've just expounded on this in another thread, that godly sorrow can and does produce repentance. But sorrow is not the same thing as repentance. :BangHead:

    The video this thread opened about is preaching another gospel, frankly. The emphasis is taken off "faith in Christ" and placed on one's "feelings". The word of God tells me to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". It tells me 'that God loved the world so much that He gave his one and only (or only-begotten) Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." It tells me that 'by grace, I have been saved through faith, and this thing is not of myself, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast.' It tells me that it is 'not of works of righteousness which I have done, but according to His mercy He saved me, by the washing of regeneration, and the renewing of the Holy Spirit'. It tells me that "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!" And that is exactly what I have done, and where I rest, with my confidence completely on the Lord.

    I simply do not find anywhere that 'first-off', I've got to pray agonize, weep, wail, and gnash my teeth', and then maybe God will see fit to save me, 'cause I've done enough now to satisfy a Holy God. Now, I can "make Him Lord" of my life, and He will accept me.

    What pure, unmitigated arrogance!!
    The very idea that a sinner could "do" something to add to what God has done for us with the sacrifice of his own Son on Mt. Moriah, is an insult to God. The Lord Jesus Christ shouted in victory, "It is finished!" He did not add an "Well, all but..." to that proclamation!

    David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:4) Again he says, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." (Ps. 58:3) So yes, Brother Bob, assuming a lie is a sin, then we are, indeed, born as lost sinners, according to the Bible. However, the Lord 'took away sin', when He was made to be 'sin for us', so that sin is not the basis for condemnation. That basis is "believe not" (disbelieve), and is stated in Jn. 3:18, and Jn. 8:58, as I previously posted. And as that infant does not have the capacity to disbelieve, then that infant is safe with God, I believe.

    I am certainly no John Calvin, who is supposed to have said 'There are babies crawling on the floor of hell "not a span long"'.

    BTW, I do not believe there are any babies crawling around on the streets of gold, either. I have a sister whom I do love, but whom I've never seen, for my mother miscarried her when I was only two years old. I'll never see her as a helpless babe, but as a radiant young woman, when I get to heaven to be reunited with the rest of my immediate family, all who have now gone before me, and my Dad won't be paralyzed from his stroke, any longer; my mother won't be white haired, frail, and stooped like she was at 94; and my brother won't have a body ravaged by cancer.
    Every one of these Scriptures, which I do believe, refer to seeking the Lord, in our daily life, after we are saved. The unbeliever is never said to seek after God. In fact, it says that the unbeliever does not seek God (Rom. 3:11), but rather that God seeks out the unsaved. (Lk. 19:10) That is what I was speaking about, in the previous post.

    Gotta' run, and do some stuff, so I can get ready to go to the Farm Machinery Show, tomorrow, the Lord willing. That day is one of my favorite days of the year, every year I can possibly make it.

    G'nite, all.

    Ed
     
    #20 EdSutton, Feb 12, 2008
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