Castaway: Picking the scab of Christian accountability

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by James_Newman, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    It seems like it always takes 30 pages to get to an interesting point in the thread, and then it gets closed down.:type:

    Jesus is teaching his disciples, this much we can agree on. What is the emphatic point He is making in verse 26, and what is the 'for' for? What does it mean to be cast away in verse 25?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    In Luke 18 we saw that the issue of "Salvation" and "eternal life" and "The Kingdom of God" are all one and the same - The ONE Gospel that would be preached in all the world.

    Never does the ONE Gospel describe "Cast Away" as the "SAVED state" or the promise of the Gospel.



    Luke 18



    The Rich Young Ruler


    18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
    19 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.
    20"You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"
    21And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
    22When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
    23But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich.
    24And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!
    25"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
    26They who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?"
    27But He said, "The things that are impossible with people are possible with God."
    28Peter said, "Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You."
    29And He said to them, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
    30who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."


    Notice the issue above is regarding the issue of being "saved"
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Another example - in the ONE Gospel -- "Forgiveness Revoked"

    Matt 18
    21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
    22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


    23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
    24 ""When he had begun to settle them,
    one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
    25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
    26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
    27 ""And the lord of that slave
    felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
    28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'


    Matt 18
    29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
    30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
    31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
    32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave,
    I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
    33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
    34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to
    the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
    35 "" My heavenly Father
    will also do the same to you
    , if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
     
    #3 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2006
  4. James_Newman

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    It's a slow Thursday morning, so I'll just expound a bit.

    Luke 9:23-26
    23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
    25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

    FOR, con.

    1. The word by which a reason is introduced of something before advanced. "That ye may be the children of your father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good." In such sentences, for has the sense of because, by reason that, as in Number 14; with this difference that in Number 14, the word precedes a single noun, and here it precedes a sentence or clause; but the phrase seems to be elliptical, for this cause or reason, which follows, he maketh his sun to rise, &c. In Romans 13:6, we find the word in both its applications, "For, for this cause ye pay tribute also -;" the first for referring to the sentence following; the latter to the noun cause.2. Because; on this account that; properly, for that.


    So let us take a moment to consider what Jesus is saying. He is saying that if any man would come after Him, he should deny himself and take up his cross (suffer) daily, because (for) whosoever will save his life (not suffer, not take up his cross) shall lose it. He should take up his cross (suffer) daily, because (for) what is a man advantaged if he gain the whole world (not suffering, not taking up his cross) and lose himself or be cast away? He should take up his cross (suffer) daily, because (for) whosoever shall be ashamed of Jesus and His words (not suffering), of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He shall come in His own glory...

    If we do not take up our cross daily in this life, try to save our life in this life, Jesus will be ashamed of us at His coming, we will be cast away then, we will lose our life then.
     
    #4 James_Newman, Oct 19, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2006
  5. BobRyan

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    Another Example - Post Cross -- "Disqualified from the Gospel"

    At this point Paul jumps fully into the topic of SALVATION! He argues the point of wining the lost. He shows that his focus and goal is fully set on the salvation that is brought through the preaching of the Gospel!

    Wining here is “Wining souls for Christ” in the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel to others – resulting in their Salvation! In this case [b]to “Win” is to “SAVE”[/b]



    Paul shows that “To win is to save”! He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them – no mention at all of his seeking “a bit more candy when he gets to heaven”. . He mentions nothing about the temporal rewards in heaven of housing, or candy or toys nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven.

    --------------------------------

    Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

    Paul shows his explicit objective when he “Does all things for the sake of the Gospel”. He SAYS he does all things so that “he may become a fellow partaker of IT – the Gospel”!!

    Those who want to limit this discussion to “the amount of candy you get in heaven” are missing the entire point. Paul argues for the very basic issue of “participating IN THE GOSPEL”. Not to participate in the ONE Gospel of our salvation – is to be lost brothers and sisters.

    It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to live AND to preach. Indeed what is the point of preaching if he is not also PARTAKING of the benefits of the Gospel – eternal life.

    Paul shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. Paul argues that ALL saints are pursuing the same eternal imperishable reward in their striving – in their self-discipline. Paul says “but WE do it to receive an IMPERISHABLE objective.


    He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

    So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

    How instructive!

    Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

    Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

    Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

    And so when Paul says

    Do you respond with

    "Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"

    Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??


    When Paul says



    He speaks of “The loss of all things” and the goal of “knowing Christ”. In fact he says his goal is to “gain Christ”. More than this – he seeks to “attain to the resurrection from the dead”.

    Those who think that “knowing Christ,” and “gaining Christ” and ‘the resurrection of the righteous” are all things “other than salvation” have not thought about the point of Gospel salvation in the complete form it is presented in scripture.
     
  6. James_Newman

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    Bob, everything you say would be right-on if it weren't for the unconditional promises that have been made of being raised up on the last day. This is the 'salvation' that we recieved freely when we believed on Jesus Christ.

    John 11:24
    24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    There is a resurrection at the last day in which we are guaranteed a part.

    John 6:40
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    You can't equate the first resurrection with the resurrection at the last day, because we know there is a second resurrection that occurs one thousand years after the first resurrection. The problem with the common teaching on salvation is that it takes all the (conditional) promises that apply to the kingdom and try to cram them into the free gift. Now when you show that the conditions are valid and apply to the Christian, you are also applying them to the free gift. But that free gift is not the same thing as the reward. Being saved from one thing does not mean you are saved from everything, and dogmatically saying that there is only one salvation doesn't make it so.
     
  7. Lacy Evans

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    What does the word "until" mean?

    Why is that last phrase there at all?
     
  8. av1611jim

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    I might also ask BR what the word "until" means.
    "Until" implies that there will be a time that repayment shall be completed, therefore this is not "forgiveness revoked" as BobR says but rather it is clearly restitution paid in full at some future point.
    Too many holes in the "lost salvation" folks' theology.
     
  9. Lacy Evans

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    Going out in a blaze of glory


    It's funny how they shoot you down
    When your hands are held up high
    And you open up your heart and soul
    But that's not enough for most.

    I remember this much
    There is nothing
    You shouldn't speak of
    If you got something to say
    And there is no one
    To be scared of
    Just get them out of the way

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    My heart is open wide
    You can take anything that you want from me
    There is nothing left to hide

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    My hands are held up high
    And i'm learning how to hit back
    I'm learning how to fight
    (how to fight)

    The law of the jungle says
    You look after yourself
    But i remember this much
    I love as i loved myself.

    Don't forget what i told you now
    When the question keeps on coming
    It's "how much more can you take"
    When they've ripped your clothes to pieces
    "shouldn't you be gone by now"

    But you keep on
    Going out in a blaze of glory
    Setting your sights for the sky.
    They can offer you anything at all
    But your dreams must not be sold.

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    No price is high enough
    I'm fighting back with feeling
    I'm fighting back with love.

    When the nails are biting into your hands
    And the cross is heavy on your heart
    Now is the time to really make a stand
    (going out, going out, going out)
    My hands are held up high.

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    Going out, going out, going out
    Going out
    Going out in a blaze of glory
    My heart is open wide
    You can take anything that you want from me
    But you cannot take my soul

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    My hands are held up high
    I'm learning how to hit back
    Yes i'm learning how to fight

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    Going out with my heart wide open
    Going out with my hands held high

    Going out in a blaze of glory
    (repeat)

    Fighting back with love
    Fighting back with love!
    No price is high enough
    To take my soul, to take my soul
    To take my soul

    It's funny how they shoot you down
    When your hands are held up high
     
  10. av1611jim

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    I don't know WHAT Bible BobR takes this from, nor do I care. I merely point out that Bob's argument seems to imply that ONE CAN SAVE OTHERS THROUGH THEIR VICARIOUS EFFORTS ON THE BEHASLF OF ONESELF.
    16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    Does the black portion mean that I can secure salvation for others Bob? Does it mean that if I do not perservere then others will be damned? Does it mean that I HAVE POWER TO SAVE?????

    Your argument falls flat based on your own advice to use just the context of the verse.

    Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
     
  11. James_Newman

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    Well, at least Bob can see that Jesus is warning His disciples. I would hope that he would re-examine the issue of God's grace. What did the cross accomplish, that Jesus could say 'it is finished', if it was not finished?

    But for the other side, we have yet to hear a response to explain what it is to be a cast away in Luke 9:25. Let's look at another verse very similar to Luke 9:24.

    John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

    Compare to
    Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

    Loving his life is analogous to saving his life, and whosoever does will lose it. Hating his life (in this world) is analogous to losing it (for His sake), and whosoever does will save it (keep it) unto life eternal.
     
  12. Hope of Glory

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    Luke 9:25: For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself (Here is the word apollumi), or be cast away?

    This is the same word used in Matthew 16:26: “Shall lose his own soul.” This is the same word found in 1 Corinthians 3:15, about suffering loss. And the word cast away, is not the same word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 9:27, which says, “…When I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” The word there is “disapproved”; the Greek word “adokimos”. Here, in Luke 9:25, the idea is “disqualified” or “forfeited”.

    So, the question becomes, from what is this saved person disqualified from or what has he forfeited?
     
  13. James_Newman

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    Mat 16:24-27
    24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
    26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    We can see plainly from this passage that the reward for saving your life is losing it, the reward for gaining the whole world is losing your soul. Indeed, what is a man profited?
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    #14 Claudia_T, Oct 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2006
  15. J. Jump

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    Claudia He finished the work necessary for redemption of mankind. It is His finished work (spotless Lamb, death and blood) that spiritually saves man, IF man will believe that His finished works were wrought on his/her behalf a sinner.

    That's why works NEVER enter the picture of spiritual salvation. If they did then what one is saying is that Christ's finished perfect works were not in fact perfect and finished at all, becuase man still has something to do with his own salvation. It makes a mockery of the Sacrifice that was made.

    That's why spiritual salvation is a one-time event. Believe and you will be saved (done deal). It's not a believe and if you are still believing when you die you will be saved. It's a one time believe and you will be saved.
     
  16. Claudia_T

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    HI JJ<

    Hey thanks for noticing I was gone awhile in that post on another thread, I missed you :)

    But anyway, the problem here as I see it is that the Bible says Believe and you will be saved but it also says a whole lot more.

    Kind of like if someone describes a police car and they say it is white. You can also say it is black.

    Well the Bible says believe and you will be saved yet it also says if you dont have good works then your belief or faith is worthless.

    This is because the good works is proof that your faith in God in genuine.

    So are you saved by your faith or by your works? Its all in how you look at it.

    Jms:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    James 2:
    8: If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
    9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
    12: So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
    13: For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
    14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Claudia
     
    #16 Claudia_T, Oct 22, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 22, 2006
  17. Hope of Glory

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    Amen!

    Believe [plus nothing] and you will be saved. Why? Because that's based on the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

    We are saved by "believe".

    But, we are to walk by faith.

    This walk does not determine whether we stay out of the lake of fire forever and ever, but our rewards are determined by our faithfulness in our walk.

    Faith without works is dead. But, our spiritual salvation is not determined by our faithfulness; it's determined by his faithfulness, and his faithfulness is perfect!

    But, without grace, our works are as filthy rags. That's why we need to access grace whereby we may serve him acceptably.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: There is not one on this list, especially BR, that does not understand that only God has the power to save. That is a paper duck argument if I have ever seen one. Your statement portraying BR as implying that one can by their own ‘vicarious efforts’ save one, is beyond all semblance of fair play and reason. BR’s arguments, as far as I have ever read could not be further from what you depict them as portraying.

    When Paul makes these statements, “Ga 4:19 ¶ My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” and “Phm 1:10 I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my bonds:” and “ 1Co 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.” And “1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith:”, would you see Paul as implying he believed as you falsely state that BR’s statements imply?
     
  19. J. Jump

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    Well it's nice to have some sensible conversations around here :)

    I would absolutely agree. The question would be then . . . if one part says saved by faith and nothing else then what is the context of the saved by faith and works. It either has to be a contradiction or it is a totally separate context.

    That would be accurate yes, but I don't think that analogy quite fits with what is being discussed.

    Again I would agree, but what we have to ask is what is the "faith" that is being discussed. One is a faith in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God that died in my place because of my sin.

    However, the faith that is mixed with works is a faith in Christ Jesus the Annointed Messiah that is the Son of the Living God that the government of this world will rest on His shoulders. The King of kings and Lord of lords, Who is coming one day (soon) to establish His kingdom. The very One Who is offering me and every other born again believer a position in that kingdom.

    I can have all the faith I want to that that information is correct, but if I don't "prove" my faith with works then that faith is useless and it will not save me. But it's not a question of forever salvation, but a question of kingdom salvation.

    I would agree if we are talking about the salvation of the soul, but there is nothing that I have to prove for spiritual salvation, because I have nothing to do with it. Spiritual salvation is all God's work done on my behalf. The only part that I play is believing what God has said about the matter. Once I have believed spiritual salvation has become a non-issue. There is nothing to prove becuase to God the matter is over and done with. He doesn't require proof, because if He did then salvation wouldn't be a one-time event, but an on-going process.

    And again the Bible speaks of both. The Bible speaks of salvation as a one-time event, but it also speaks of an on-going salvation. So again we either have a contradiction in Scripture or the only other alternative is that we have different contexts, and we must distinguish the contexts as Scripture does.

    Exactly. Context is the key.

    Again glad you are back! :thumbs:
     
  20. James_Newman

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    It got awful quiet in here. I guess no one wants to discuss the words of our Lord.
     

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