Catholic Question ???

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by KJVRICH, Feb 19, 2013.

  1. KJVRICH

    KJVRICH
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    I know there are some catholics on this board so maybe you can help.
    My question is, if the Bible consistantly tells us that Jesus Christ is the
    ONLY WAY to the Father -(JN 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me) and there is only ONE mediator between God and man (1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus) and there is
    but ONE name in which we are saved (Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.) why do catholics have countless novenas to saints, promises from wearing scapulars...wearing medals....first saturday promises....belief in apparitions from Mary..why do they do this ? and why is
    JESUS CHRIST not enough?
     
  2. Walter

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    Well, your starting off with a bang with your very first post on this board. There are only three Catholics allowed on this board so know that answers may not come as quickly as questions. I will do my best though.

    Because we are all branches of the same vine, there is no reason one cannot approach those who have passed from this life to be with the Lord to ask for prayers. This isn't semantic or any word play. You can call it prayer or request or asking, but it is the same as asking your friend to pray for you. As covered on another thread, this is NOT nacromancy, it absolutely does not fit the definition and these peoples souls are not dead. They intercede for us in the same way that I can intercede for you.

    Because we are all branches of the same vine, there is no reason one cannot apprach them to ask for prayers. This isn't semantic or any word play. You can call it prayer or request or asking, but it is the same as asking your friend to pray for you. They intercede for us in the same way. It is clear to me in Sacred Scripture that the saints in Heaven will intercede for us before the throne of Christ if they are petitioned (Revelations 8:3-4)
     
  3. DHK

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    You are dishonest in your answer.
    You don't "ask for prayers." You pray directly TO Mary and other saints. Thus you are not asking FOR prayers. You are praying TO dead people. You don't do that on earth. You don't pray to people on earth; why do you do it to the dead people in Heaven, purgatory or in hell. You don't know their eternal destiny for sure. Thus it does fall in the realm of necromancy.
    Another dishonest answer. It is just not true.
    Would you go to the poster's house who just asked you this question, kneel before him, pray to him as being holy, and ask him (not God) to grant you a certain petition. That is what you do with prayers to the saints and to Mary. I gave you a link of prayers to the saints. Did you read them? And that is, by definition, idolatry.
    The soul is alive: if it is in heaven it is alive; if it is in hell, it is alive being tormented "in this flame" as the rich man testified. It is very much alive. In one case it is with the Lord, and in the other is in hell apart from the Lord. They are presently spirit beings awaiting the resurrection. That is why they are considered dead. The resurrection has not taken place. You can go to their graves. Their bodies are still there.
    The only person that can truly intercede for you is Christ.
    He is our Great High Priest. He is our mediator. He is our advocate. No other person can do what he does.
    That metaphor applies only to those on earth.
    Again, a dishonest answer.
    You don't pray TO me, but you can only ask me to pray FOR you. You need to see that difference. But you do pray TO Mary, which is idolatry.
    They cannot intercede for you; they don't have that power. That is not what Rev.8:3,4 teaches.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    Well, the answer is that you are right salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. The saints are viewed as members of the Church body like wizend older brothers and sisters in Christ. And the prayers such as novenas to the saints are seen as 1) a request for the Saints to Keep us in their prayers which are lifted before God and there by helping us in our sanctification and 2) as a method of thinking about how they lived their lives and what they did to live in Christ a kind of like treating them as a mentor.

    Now when we get to Mary Catholics believe she plays a special role in the life of the Church. Primarily she interseses for the Church or prays for the Church. In the same manner as Bathsheeba was looked at as King Solomon's Queen Mother Catholics believe that Mary has this role as well as she prays for the Church. In each of the promises and apparitions (which I can only speak to a few) Mary's main goal is seen to lead people closer to Christ or help them grow in sanctification. It is not mean to "glorify Mary" as a god.
     
  5. KJVRICH

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    here is a good example, taken from www.catholictradition.org/mary/scapular4.htm

    The Brown Scapular of Our Lady:
    Its Origin and Promise

    4. MEANING OF THE PROMISE

    PRESENTING the Scapular to Saint Simon for the world, Our Lady makes but one condition to Her promise of Salvation: "Whosoever dies clothed in this Habit shall not suffer the fires of Hell." She promises that anyone who enters Her family of Carmel, and dies there, shall not be lost.

    to me this is blasphemy,
    Mary's promise of salvation...?????? Mary's one condition to her promise?
    to me this is directly against what is in the Gospels.
     
    #5 KJVRICH, Feb 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 19, 2013
  6. DHK

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    Which is just a polite way of saying: "I like to practice idolatry in my own way without people calling it as it is, so leave me alone."
     
  7. Thinkingstuff

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    That's a good question. Its kind of like saying if you give your life to Christ and remain in the faith you'll be saved. Its not to be understood as if the die in the clothes is a magical property. Its put this way by one catholic site I visited.
    If you think of it its like saying doning the Uniform of a Marine denotes on the wearer honor, faithfulness to all the principles purported by the Marine Corps.
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Not at all. There is only one God. I worship him. I don't have idols in my house and only two Icons Orthdox like Picture of Jesus the bread of Life and a triptic. As for Mary, I don't have any statues in my house or pictures of Mary in my house. Except for a triptic picturing Calvary where Mary is at the foot of the Cross with John and the Centurian. However, if I had such a thing it wouldn't be an idol it would remind me of Her Obedience to the Lord when she said "Let it be done to me according to your word." An example which I should follow. I've never asked to be left alone in questioning Catholic beliefs. I'm only too glad to answer what I really believe.
     
  9. Baptist4life

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    OK, here's a question............since by your posts here, you appear to be a catholic, why do you list yourself as "baptist" in your profile?
     
  10. Walter

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    I can answer that one. If you look at the Church he attends, it says he attends 'St. Patrick's'. Same with me. If you look at what Church I attend, it reads 'Holy Family'. There is no way for us to change our denomination from Baptist to Catholic. For some reason, the board doesn't have a way to edit that but it does for a home church.
     
  11. Walter

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    I think TS would agree with me. We know 'who' and 'what' we worship. If I tell you I do not worship Mary or the saints, I believe you should accept that and not continue to insist we do something that we do not do. You are the one that insists that ALL prayer is worship. Words have meaning:

    Pray:

    1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful>

    2: to make a request in a humble manner

    3: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

    Usually when I pray I am addressing God but not always. Sometimes I request a saint that has entered Heaven to pray with me. Were Moses and Elijah aware of what was happening on the Mount of Transfiguration? I believe they did and I think you know down deep in your heart that they did too. If what you say is true, how can that be?

    BTW, the Church has always had the same interpretation of the verses in Revelation that I gave.
     
  12. Yeshua1

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    His OP is extermely valid, as there are NO scriptures that support that the dead intercede on our behalf, and WHAT can Mary./peter/pope do for us that the Lord Jesus and the Holy spirit cannot be able to do?

    We ALL: who are saved have immediate and full access to the throne of God, so why need any one else to intercede, isn't God enough?
     
  13. DHK

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    Your logic goes like this:
    If I consistently say that I believe there are green monkeys who are gods on the planet Pluto and eat green cheese. They will bless you immensely you if you eat green cheese also.
    If I keep repeating that will you believe me?
    Does the repetition of a lie make it any more truthful?
    My standard for measurement is not your feelings, your Catechism, or the RCC teaching, it is what the Bible teaches. Read and study the Ten Commandments as given in Exodus 20 in the KJV.
    Accordingly you worship Mary. It is a given. You pray to Mary, and that is worshiping Mary. You adore her. You praise her. I am well aware of the various Catholic prayers said in honor of Mary and directed straight TO her. It is worship.
    They can't hear you; they are dead. The governor general of Quebec is a Spiritist. She prays to her grandparents; talks to them. That is no different then you do. But that is exactly what is condemned in the Bible. Communicating with spirits is wrong.
    Were you there? No. But Peter, James and John were. They were the only ones. And they were the only ones that can testify of that event. You would do well to heed to Peter's testimony of that event:

    Peter describes what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration here:
    2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    --No doubt it was the greatest experience in his life, an experience that any person would be absolutely overcome with total awe, and never forget.
    But look how Peter compares this experience. Immediately he says:

    2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
    20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    --Immediately he points to the Word of God.
    "We have a more sure word of prophecy." The promises of the Word of God outweigh any experience that I may have had, Peter says. The Word is more important then seeing the Transfigured Christ and Moses and Elijah. Look to the Word of God. It is your authority.
    The "Church" doesn't exist. Believers exist which make up many local churches. The word translated "church" is ekklesia which means assembly and is never used in a denominational sense or in a universal sense. There is no such animal spoken of in the Bible. Your ecclesiology is just plain wrong, and is another reason why the RCC could not possibly the true "church." There never was one. The truth was kept through believers in local churches. It was corrupted by church organizations like the RCC.
    Of course the RCC magesterium hasn't strayed from their corrupt interpretation. The magesterium are sinful men who don't have the light to properly interpret the Bible in the first place.
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    jesus is my High Priest before the Father, and the Holy Spirit assists me in my prayers, so what can the saints do that they are not able to do?
     
  15. Walter

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    'A "visible" Church such as the Catholic and Orthodox Church has authority on earth. Somebody is in charge and that somebody is a Bishop. When a dispute arises over some matter, there is an authority that we can go to to get a definitive answer - which has been assured by Jesus to be true.' Baptists do not have that and the result is that Baptist churches split and split and split over many trivial matters. Of course, there are sometimes major doctrinal matters that cause your churches to split (like Milinial Exclusion) that cause major rifts. One doesn't have to go further than to read the nastiness between Baptists on this board to see 'there is trouble in Paradise' and that it just doesn't work. There is a crisis of authority within Baptist churches when disputes arise.
     
    #15 Walter, Feb 19, 2013
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  16. Thomas Helwys

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    Oh, so in those churches that have bishops, they settle disputes and this is assured by Jesus to be true. Why? Because of a mythical apostolic succession? And you suppose there are no liberal bishops in the RCC like in the Episcopal Church? Just think, before he retired, Episcopalians could go to Bishop John Shelby Spong and get the answers to their questions assuredly answered by a man who had a direct line to Jesus.

    Sorry, but I had rather trust the scriptures and the Holy Spirit within me to get the truth from rather than some third party who might or might not even be a Christian. That's what happens when you turn your conscience over to someone else.
     
  17. DHK

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    The only visible church is a local church which the RCC is not. Such a corrupt organization could never be representative of God's authority or truth.
    Not in the RCC.
    It is called the Bible.
    Should I tell you of all the divisions in the RCC, even those that sacrifice goats and sheep to a statue of Mary. I have witnessed it. If you ask Mexdeaf, he will tell you similar things as well. You are a divided and superstitious lot that don't take the Bible seriously.
    You shouldn't be so quick to judge. The past and present sins of the RCC are written in blood and in sexual immorality all over this globe. Then they have the audacity to call them the successors of Christ. Hilarious! Let's look at one of the most recent examples:
    http://ncronline.org/news/accountab...uments-revealing-inner-workings-legion-christ

    This is an incredible story of fraud, sex, scandal. There is nothing comparable to this in any Baptist Church I have been in. God doesn't keep his truth in such dirty vessels. This is just atrocious.
     
  18. Thomas Helwys

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    And this is what happens when you have a hierarchy of men who forbid their ministers to marry. This is not just unbiblical, it is anti-biblical.
     
  19. Walter

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    Is this really a thread about 'Jesus as the only Mediator' or is this thread on corruption in churches?

    You know there are websites that expose Baptists for doing just the thing you are accusing Catholics of?

    No one is forbidden to marry. If a person CHOOSES to become ordained as a priest in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, then he voluntarily CHOOSES to remain celebate. He knows full well before CHOOSING the course of a seminarian in the Latin Rite that it is a discipline of celibacy. No one forbids anyone from marrying. If they want to marry maybe they should consider one of the Eastern Rite Churches. Even the Latin Rite allows for former Anglican clergy to become priests and remain with their wives.

    And, although there are sinners in the Church, that does not eclipse the truth that the Church teaches. Also, much is being done to correct what caused certain seminarians to be accepted in their seminaries. I understand prospective seminarians go through a battery of psychological testings before being admitted to a seminary. The Church has been through a lot since her beginnings, and has survived. She will survive this as well.

    And, it seems that the rate of abuse by protestant ministers is higher than that of Catholic priests, and the rate among teachers was even higher. A quote:
    "Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent."

    So, pot meet kettle!
     
    #19 Walter, Feb 19, 2013
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  20. Thomas Helwys

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    Oh, please! That is doublespeak. If you want to be an ordained minister, you are forbidden to marry. You cannot follow your calling and be married at the same time in the RCC. Not only is this a primary cause of all the sexual shenanigans in the RCC, it is an evil and vain tradition of men which is anti-scriptural.

    See, this and other such bull is the reason I could never be a Roman Catholic. There are too many commandments of men in place of the scriptures, and you have to surrender your conscience to a man-made hierarchy. None of this has anything to do with God; it is evil.

    I just cannot swallow all the bull, not even if I cut it up into little pieces and took one small bite at a time. It's still bull, and my system wouldn't digest it even if I could get it down.
     

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