catholicism and salvation

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by jlee12489, May 27, 2005.

  1. jlee12489

    jlee12489
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    hi, i have a few catholic friends and ive been lookin at www.catholic.com. i came upon their belief on salvation http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

    can anybody tell me what the following verses really mean?
    Matt 24:13- Catholics believe that they must endure to then end to be saved, and use this verse for support
    Rom. 11:22- states that one can be "cut off" and they believe that they need to work for their salvation.
    The website covers more on this topic.

    Can anybody read the site and show me what the verses really mean?

    ALso,would a catholic go to heaven? is there a Bible verse(s) that state that those who believe in works don't go to heaven?

    sorry if im asking too many questions but.. i guess I'm a little curious

    thanks
     
  2. billwald

    billwald
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    Catholics are as "Christian" as any protestant denomination.
     
  3. FriendofSpurgeon

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    JLee --

    Here are some thoughts ...

    One key question is -- On what side of the equation does "works" fall?
    * Most Protestants -- Grace = Salvation + Works
    * Catholics -- Grace + Works = Salvation

    There is no verse found in Scripture that says if one believes in works, he/she is not a Christian. On the other hand, there are many verses that talk about works. For example, the whole book of James.

    From a reformed standpoint, we are saved by God's grace alone. Our salvation produces a new person and thus, we are called to do good works. However, these works do not cause salvation; they are the result of our salvation.

    In addition, most reformed Christians will talk about the "perserverance and preservation of the saints" as opposed to "once saved, always saved."

    Hope this is helpful.
     
  4. billwald

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    From the Reformed view, they think that they are all "elect." There is no test for election except continued good works.

    If Christianity was honest then good works would be the primary evidence that the Holy Spirit was at least working on/in a person.

    Reformed theology can't deal with the problem with people who love God and neighbor but are not Reformed. The best they (we) can come up with is that apparently good deeds are "really" bad deeds because only Reformed people can do good deeds.
     
  5. SouthernBoy

    SouthernBoy
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    "The best they (we) can come up with is that apparently good deeds are "really" bad deeds because only Reformed people can do good deeds."

    That is so true.
     
  6. Living4Him

    Living4Him
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    Jlee12489,

    Salvation (from a Catholic POV, I'm one)is an ongoing process, not a one time event at an altar call.

    Salvation begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will.

    Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins.

    Salvation is an on going process...
    We were saved in the past: Rom 5:1-2, 8:24, Eph 2:5-9.
    We are being saved now: 1Cor 1:18, 1Cor 15:2, Phil 2:12, Heb 10:14, 1Pet 1:8-9, 1Pet 2:1-2.
    We will be saved in the future: Matt 10:22, 24:13, Rom 6:16, 13:11, 1Cor 3:15, 5:5, Gal 2:17,
    Gal 5:4-5, Rev 21:6-7.


    Paul tells us: "For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality" (Rom. 2:6–11; cf. Gal. 6:6–10).

    The Catholic Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense—mere man cannot (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007). The most merit humans can have is condign—when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6–11, Gal. 6:6–10). Thus God’s grace and his promise form the foundation for all human merit (CCC 2008).

    What Our Lord demands is 'faith which works through charity'. (Gal 5:6).

    Grace is a gift from GOD. It is given freely to us, but in return He expects us to do our part by our performance of Good Works.


    The Catholic Church does not teach that purely human good works are meritorious for salvation; such works are not meritorious for salvation, according to her teaching. Only those good works performed when a person is in the state of grace, that is, as a branch drawing its spiritual life from the Vine which is Christ (Jn 15:4-6), only these good deeds work toward our salvation, and they do so only by the grace of GOD and the merit of Jesus Christ.

    Mere human works are useless without the grace of GOD and faith working through love.


    We work out what GOD works in our hearts.
    Faith plus Works equals Faith working through Love. Galatians 5:6
     
  7. dianetavegia

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    POV? Prisoner of the Vatican? ;)
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Many/most Christians believe in the endurance - "perseverance" of the saints (all except for 4 Pt Calvinists). So the fact that the CAtholics "also accept that" truth does not reflect upon them negatively.

    Matt 24:13 is correct just as it reads.

    13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

    No need to edit it. This is basic to 5 Pt Calvinism and to Arminians and also to 3 Pt Calvinists.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    That is correct as well.

    No need to edit it.

    It matches the end of Matt 18 (the story Christ tells about forgiveness revoked) perfectly -- without change, without editing, without the need to rewrite it.

    Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

    Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
    Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.
    They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

    God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

    And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
    Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
    called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

    The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

    Rom 11
    24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are
    the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

    They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

    </font>[/QUOTE]Believing the Bible just as it reads - is not a reason to accuse them of "works-based-salvation".

    To get to the works-based-problem they need something more than this.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    A quote from the Catholic site showing their first forray into error.

    That last statement would only be true of the 4pt Calvinist view. This RC web site paints all evangelical groups with a broad brush as if ALL were 4pt Calvinists.

    That is simply not the case with non-Catholic groups. EVEN those who do believe in OSAS would reject the statement above if they are not 4 pointers.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    A point from the link that ALL (except 4 point Calvinists) can agree to -- both RC and non-RC, both the OSAS and the literalists.

    Where there is broad dissagreement is on the issue of "can you demerit salvation" as pointed out in the article -- like the way Adam and Eve lost their standing with God and the way Christ describes it in Matt 18 and Ezek 18 and Heb 6.

    The other issue is how these truths of scripture might negatively impact the Bible basis for the assurance of salvation.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. tragic_pizza

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    [ June 10, 2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     

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