Catholics are Arminians

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
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    In my recent witnessing endeavors with some more knowledgeable Catholics, I have gotten some very Arminian answers from them including:

    -Salvation is not based on election but on our free will to accept God's universal call

    -The bush man in Africa who has never heard the name of Christ may still make it to heaven

    -Christ's death was intended for all people of all time

    -Men can fall away from salvation

    -Man is not in bondage to his sin so as to make it impossible to seek God on his own


    I found it just as difficult to reason with the Catholics as I have in these forums. Why? Because our minds are so abhorred to a doctrine that places God above own own stubborn will that we cannot acknowledge it's presence even if confronted with plain scripture to the contrary.
     
  2. whatever

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    Several years ago I heard a talk by R. C. Sproul called "Everybody Believes This Doctrine", speaking of predestination. His point was that every branch of Christianity throughout history taught some form of predestination. What is shocking to me is the number of people who will deny any form of predestination today.

    Here is a link to an article on the Catholic doctrine of predestination. I thought this quote was especially interesting:

    This is well past Arminianism and it is heresy. And yet it sounds a lot like what some here argue for.
     
  3. webdog

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    That is a stretch. Catholics are works based, and do not point to Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to salvation. To claim they are arminian or calvinists is just plain wrong.
     
  4. OCC

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    -The bush man in Africa who has never heard the name of Christ may still make it to heaven

    This statement is tricky. Who are we to say they've never heard of Jesus Christ? If no missionary ever goes to that bushman in Africa, an angel CAN. God is not incompetent that He won't let someone in the jungle hear the gospel just because none of his humans never go there on a one week missions trip.

    Webdog, Catholics do point to Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation I believe. All those extras that everyone knows about are just ways that they believe they receive grace from Jesus. This is what Catholics themselves have told me.
     
  5. Bro. James

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    Why do we seem to be excluding the "doctrines of grace" which were taught 1500 years before Jean Chauvin and James Arminius were born?

    While Calvinism and Arminianism are convenient generalities, they tend to stereotype groups and individuals. They also exclude truth. The truths of the Word of God did not just suddenly reappear in the 16th century.
    The grace of God has been revealed, having originated before the foundation of the world.

    The unadulterated Truth has no need of reformation. Look for the Bride-- she is still the pillar and ground of Truth--she is still out there--just like Jesus promised.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  6. whetstone

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    This is correct.
     
  7. webdog

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    This is correct. </font>[/QUOTE]This is not correct. I challenge you to read the latest 1994 catechism. It will blow your mind as to what they really believe about salvation.
     
  8. OCC

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    No problem webdog. I bet somewhere in there something is being totally misunderstood though. That happens a lot when it comes to Catholics and I was guilty of it myself before I actually SPOKE to them.
     
  9. webdog

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    I'll highlight some things from the catechism

    pg. 215, #816 "The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: 'For it is through Christ's catholic church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of means of salvation can be obtaines.'"

    pg. 224, #846 "...all salvation comes from Christ the Head THROUGH the church which is the body: Basing itself on scripture and tradition, the council teaches that the church, a pilgrim now on earth, IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION..."
    (May 7, 2001, Pope John Paul told 2000 youth gathered at the Greek Melkite Cathedral of Damascus that "you cannot be a christian if you reject the church founded on Jesus Christ.")

    pg. 222, #837 "Even though incorporated into the church, one who does not however persever in charity is not saved." This includes baptism (pg. 320, #1257 "the church does not know of any other means other than baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude..."), sacraments (pg. 292 #1113 "The church affirm that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.")

    pg. 252, #969 "Taken up to heaven she (Mary) did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..."

    pg. 125, #494 "Being obedient she (Mary) became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."

    They DO NOT believe Jesus Christ is the ONLY way!!
     
  10. OCC

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    "...all salvation comes from Christ the Head THROUGH the church which is the body:..."

    Isn't that what I said? I believe so.

    "Webdog, Catholics do point to Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation I believe. All those extras that everyone knows about are just ways that they believe they receive grace from Jesus. This is what Catholics themselves have told me."

    Saved by Christ...THROUGH...the Church. Yep, pretty much what I told you. Oh...and don't shout at me.
     
  11. webdog

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    Why didn't you finish the quote? You missed the most important part "the church...IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION"! What you fail to understand is salvation comes from Christ THROUGH (not shouting, emphasis added) the blood of Christ and our faith in him. The church plays no part whatsoever in salvation! You actually believe the church plays a role in salvation? Are you catholic?

    Funny how that is the only part of the posted catechism you commented on! Just continue to take the word of the catholics you know, though.

    [ July 14, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]
     
  12. whetstone

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    What king james was trying to say is that catholics SAY they believe only in Jesus for salvation. I have heard this numerous times from many Catholics. Their writings, however, do not allow for exclusive faith in Christ for salvation (such as the council of trent). Neither KJ or I am defending Catholicism- just attempting to represent it correctly, something Arminians could learn from when discussing a position they disagree with- Calvinism.
     
  13. OCC

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    Webdog...you are reading way too much into it. I didn't comment on the rest because there was nothing to say. The one I commented on was because it directly supported what I told you in the first place!

    I am not catholic, I am a Christian (Baptist). I just get tired of people THINKING they know what a different group believes, telling me I'm wrong, and then posting something that totally proves I am right. The Church does play a part in salvation. They preach the Gospel. Christ adds you to the Church. If you aren't part of the Church, you aren't saved. I'm not going to argue with you. I got more important things to deal with. This is simple truth. Grasp it.

    Just to give you a possible different interpretation...maybe they believe that Mary was the cause of salvation for herself and the whole world because she gave BIRTH to the SAVIOUR! In fact, that is the only logical meaning. She cannot be the cause of her salvation in the way you are presenting it because she NEEDED salvation. :rolleyes:
     
  14. OCC

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    Exactly whetstone...I am trying to represent it correctly.

    Webdog..I don't "fail to understand" anything. I know how we are saved. You just assume. Assume all you want. I am not going to argue with you. I don't have to prove anything to you.
     
  15. webdog

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    KJ, continue to believe you are right...I am married to a woman who had a hard time leaving the catholic church and turning to Jesus as the only way of salvation. Fact of the matter is, you are wrong. The church plays a part in spreading the Word, but no part in salvation as the RC and you seem to believe. That is the simple truth. Grasp it.

    You claim my post proves you right, then you go on to say "Just to give you a possible different interpretation...maybe they believe that Mary was the cause of salvation for herself and the whole world because she gave BIRTH to the SAVIOUR!" Um...that is not what they believe. My wife's entire family are die hard catholics, and I guarantee I know more about catholicism and what they believe about salvation from witnessing to them than you probably do.
     
  16. OCC

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    Your post does prove me right. And if you would write with any sort of honesty and integrity you would know that I was referring to the "THROUGH the Church..." issue, not Mary. Continue to try and twist my words ok?

    As for Mary, if that's not what they believe...they are illogical. I only offered a possible interpretation because I thought you were rather quick to assume what they believed. And your "I may know more than you do..." statement is bull. Maybe you do, maybe you don't...but don't try and intimidate me with it because of your family ties. Do you think my whole family is not Catholic?

    As for the Church...does Christ add you to the Church when you are saved? Or doesn't He? I don't recall saying the Church saves you anyways. I do recall trying to represent what Catholics believe and I do recall saying that the Church plays a role in our salvation. Now...is there anything else you want to argue about, twist, pound your chest and bully about? Or are you finished?
     
  17. webdog

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    [​IMG] Try some anger management courses! Nothing like good christian brotherly love! :mad: :rolleyes:
     
  18. OCC

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    Don't see any anger there. [​IMG]

    BTW...I can say the same for your posts to me..."Nothing like good christian brotherly love!" goes both ways dude...and I am tired of being nice while others attack me.
     
  19. whetstone

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    ok guys break it up. end of issue. just a bunch of misunderstandings. why not start over again regarding the OP or say nothing at all. :D
     
  20. Scott J

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    So are Arminians... it is a matter of degrees.
    That's probably true though they have more in common with arminians... and very little in common with calvinists.
     

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