Causing Men to Lust

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Feb 7, 2011.

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  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Oh Gee Gerald,

    you dug up good old Uncle Al Martin, pastor of Montville Trinity Reformed Baptist Church in Montville NJ. This guy is the real deal....rarely do you find someone as dedicated as this saint. :jesus:
     
  3. freeatlast

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    This is the first time I have ever listened to him but he hit the nail on the head with this one.
     
  4. BobinKy

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    WHEW... You probably could hear a pin drop in the pews when this sermon was delivered. Not an eyelid blinked. Yes, like EWF said, this guy must be the real deal. Are his sermons online?

    ...Bob (dropping a pin)
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    many are on sermonaudio...they are all good,all the time:thumbs:
     
  6. freeatlast

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  7. Alive in Christ

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    Concerning that pastor, several things are very apparent...

    1) He dearly loves his flock
    2) He is a man in whom there "is no guile".
    3) He is a born Pastor
    4) He is a man "of the book".(he loves the scriptures)

    But...I never would have ever heard that message in person because I could'nt function as a born again person under that degree of extreme fundamentalism.

    Many do, however.

    God bless him and his Church.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    I've seen this before. More than once. Funny, it offends me more and more every time that I see it.

    My response won't be a popular one here, but as I said before not long ago, what's new.

    That man had no right - no right at ALL - to use the descriptive language that he did about women in his church and women in general. If I were a women in that audience, I would have been HIGHLY embarrassed to hear a pastor say the words that he said.

    If I were married, I would hope that I would be married to a man with enough spiritual backbone to take my arm and escort me out of there and take me home. And I would CERTAINLY whisper in his ear that I did not want HIM listening to anymore of that descriptive language about women's private body parts.

    I'm not even a man for pity's sake and for the 30 minutes that I listened to that drivel, I could NOT get my mind to stop envisioning scantily clad women. It was like listening to verbal soft-core erotica.





    NO pastor - EVER - has the right to get up in the pulpit and say these words:
    • "If you look at at pictures of hookers, that's what you see - their butts hugged by their skirts because that's what they are selling - their butts." (Why do we want to look at hookers or pictures of hookers? Why do want this explict image thought about in church? Why would you want your boys in church to hear something like that?)
    • "spandex slack that hug a woman's thigh, buttocks, and crotch"
    • "cleavage down to the navel (tracing his hand down his own chest while describing)"
    • "I heard a wonderful young man say to another "I saw a woman bend over and I could see her panties and I wondered what it would be like to slip my hand down her back"." (Then he cries and says what a Godly young man this guy is and how he is 'passionate to be holy'. Yeah, he sounds passionate alright.)
    • "crack of a woman's buttocks" "butt cracks"
    • slacks hugging the croch and drawing men's eyes to the most erotic part of your body"
    • "sexpots flaunting their bodies"
    • "short skirts that you have do a shimmy in just to sit down ...... then you get distracted and before long, your legs are spread open and men can see all the way up to your panties"
    • "upper garments that hug the breasts, isolate the breasts, and shape the breasts"
    • "we should not receive anatomy lesson on the mammary glands when we see you." (maybe he shouldn't give a female anatomy lesson in his "sermon")
    • "the purity of your heart does not cancel out your appearance" (If a woman is dressed appropriately, the her purity of heart most indeed does.)
    I am all for women and men dressing appropriately. I am completely opposed to the explicit speech in that "sermon". Where was the gospel presentation by the way?

    A couple more things.

    He has the gall to ask not only the men in the congregation, but the boys (and that's just a little creepy, in my opinion) to raise their hands and keep them up if they had seen women dressed like this in church and has stumbled because of it. And then he asked the women to look around. If I were the mother of a boy, I would be ticked off and he would hear about it in private from me, personally.

    Lastly, he asked anyone watching that if they thought he was wrong to come to him with an open Bible and show him where he was wrong.

    I can't "go" to him, but I can open my Bible and tell you where he was wrong.

    • Ephesian 4:29 - "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." (I was not "built up" by this sermon. I felt like a "bad girl". It made me feel unworthy. And if couldn't get images of hookers and women's tight clothing exposing body parts out of my mind, then what about all the men and boys present who were specifically ask about their own weak areas? It made NO SENSE to talk that way in mixed company.)
    • 1 Timothy 2:1-10 - The men are to lift holy hands and focus on leading the worship service. The women are wear "holy apparel" focus on maintaining an atmosphere of worship. The greek word for apparel is a "garment". What are those holy garments that women are to "wear"?






      • shamefacedness (reverence for others)
      • sobriety (self-control)
      • professing godliness
      • good works
      "In like manner also the women are to "adorn [kosmeĊ] themselves in modest [kosmios] apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." Paul did not say for them to adorn themselves with garments of loose-fitting trousers or dresses, mid-sleeved jackets, and close-toed shoes. He said to adorn themselves with shamefacedness and sobriety and good works.
    I'm all for women dressing decently. Shame on the them if they don't. But I think this particular preacher has a problem. Why do I think that? He reminds me a little bit of my own preacher.

    My preacher is a great man with a tremendous burden for lost people. But he also struggles. You see, he'a a "breast man". How do I know? I've seen him looking. Looking at women who are dressed extremely appropriately. How else do I know? He has said in the pulpit that women in our church are not allowed to raise their hands - only men. I went to the church office to question him about it and the minister of music was there and stopped me before I did. I am SOOOOO glad. The minister of music told me that our pastor believes that a woman with her hand lifted to the Lord, BY lifting her hand or hands will "expose her breasts and draw attention to them". He told me that's why our pastor will not allow the very gifted female choir director to lead congregational singing in his absence. The pastor feels that the men in the congregation would only watch her breasts with her hands in the air.

    You see, my pastor has the problem. Not the women in the church. Now, I love him and pray for him and would never speak a word about this to him. But, I, the one WITH the mammary glands and who is dressing appropriately am NOT the one with the problem.

    This pastor left us with a quote from Richard Baxter, the Puritan preacher who lived in the 1600's when women dressed like this:

    [​IMG]

    The quote, in part said this, "women should walk as if they were a candle among straw or gun powder".

    If a man's heart and mind is THAT weak - seemingly no matter if we are dressed decently or not (how much more decently dressed can you get with a Puritan woman?), then perhaps we women should just all stay home and let the men and boys go to church.

    I don't know what else to do if men are absolutely THAT weak.

    Women should be dressing appropriately. Older women should teach the younger women. That "sermon" was out of line for mixed company.

     
    #8 Scarlett O., Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
  9. Amy.G

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    If that sermon didn't cause the men to lust, I don't know what will!
     
  10. Scarlett O.

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    *smile* I don't have a command of my train of thoughts like you, Amy, I tried so hard to say, clumsily and with far too many words what you so brilliantly said with only fourteen. :thumbs:
     
  11. freeatlast

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    I assure you that message would not cause any man of God to lust. For the man of God who has to go through the daily assaults of the women of this world to come to church and have to set through the same thing because of some or many that message is soothing to their heart.
     
  12. Benjamin

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    Yeah, I heard him say, "You can't expect those women to think like men." Then I thinking, "Where's Scarlett on this one" :laugh: Clicked in to post that and kazzam....:laugh:

    Too funny...:laugh:
     
    #12 Benjamin, Feb 7, 2011
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  13. freeatlast

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    [Personal reference removed] He did not say anything that was not already known nor was it even close to being out of line as what many watch on TV. Nothing in that message was said that would do any spiritual harm to anyone, but left unsaid as is being done in most liberal churches today does do great harm. I have no doubt that satan is deeply offended by that message, but I am positive that God is not. It all depends on which side one stands as to how it is received.
     
    #13 freeatlast, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
  14. abcgrad94

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    I felt this "sermon" was much too descriptive for mixed company. The pastor could have gotten the point across without resulting to such explicit verbal pictures.

    This man obviously loves the Lord and his church members. However, it is up to the godly women in the church to instruct the less mature women in delicate matters like this. On more than one occasion, I have been asked by pastors to please speak with other ladies about their dress. That was the appropriate way to handle the issue. I did NOT reveal the names of any men who had complained. That would have caused unnecessary discomfort for the ladies and could have harmed friendships. By keeping it generalized, we preserved the dignity of both parties while approaching the problem.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    While men and women need to be careful as to how they dress and the way they carry themselves, the only one responsible for lusting is the one who does it. Men (and women) lust because it is pleasant and exciting to do so.

    No one can make another lust unless they are willing to do it. If someone is willing to lust, no one can prevent it from happening.

    In Muslim countries where women are completely covered in nearly shapeless coverings, men still lust after women because lust involves the imagination and the will.

    Lust is the work of the flesh, not a fruit of the Spirit. If a person is walking in the Spirit and is undergoing transformation in Christ, they can resist and overcome lust.

    If we cannot obey the calling of the gospel to "flee youthful lusts", then something is wrong with our personal practice of faith in Christ -- and often, there is because the mainstream Christian church in Western 20th-21st century culture has almost completely ignored the gospel teachings on personal discipleship and transformation.

    No one can "cause" us to lust unless we are willing and active participants in it.
     
  16. quantumfaith

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    My observations:

    1. Women do not have to be dressed "inappropriately" in order for a man to look and entertain "impure" thoughts. Any man who says otherwise, is not completely honest.

    2. Women should be cognizant of the "make-up" of men, as if they aren't and dress in an dignified manner.

    3. The topic, IMO, would best be handled in "non-mixed" company. Where women leaders in the church take the time to gently instruct others of appropriateness of dress.

    4. I personally do not want women to dress in burkas to come to church, the man is responsible for where his thoughts go.
     
  17. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  18. Scarlett O.

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    You have guessed incorrectly, brother.



    All I can tell you is that the men of my church would not have appreciated that sermon because it would have embarrassed their wives and female friends having to listen to a man explicitly describe women's bodies in the context of scant clothing.



    Well, as you quoted my statement that I was offended by this sermon and you say that you have no doubt that satan would be offended, I can only surmise that what you are trying to say to me is not complimentary.

    I disagree.

     
  19. drfuss

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    This guy reminds me of the Pastor of a church I was in many years ago. After he became pastor, he would not let anyone join the church because many of trhe women who wanted to join, came to church with their arms not covered. While I was in his home one day, he made his kids turn off the TY during beer comercials because they were worldly.

    This pastor had to leave after four years because he had an affair with one of the women in the church. While he was pastor, he would regularly spend a few day in the mountains at his cabin alone to "pray, meditate and write". After his affair became public, we found out that he had a long time sweetheart in those mountains.

    Since Martin is so bothered by the way women dress, he may have a similiar problem. I assume not.
     
  20. BobinKy

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    I agree with Pastor Martin on this sermon and I think the sermon should be preached "as is" in all churches. The only difference I can see, is the congregation should be divided up and the men folk attend one hour and the women folk attend a different hour.

    The magnets Pastor Martin graphically discussed are real for teenager boys and men. Pretending they do not exist is hiding from the issue, as is preferring them not to be discussed because they may embarrass or educate. No males need education of this issue--it comes naturally. Calling any boy or man dirty or lustful because he looks and wonders does not solve the problem either.

    Men should "man up" and tell their sisters, wives, mothers, ladies across the aisle, and ladies in the pew in front of them something like:

    Excuse me, but you are so pretty that I cannot keep my mind on the sermon. Do you mind if I move?​

    No wonder, many of the old-line Baptist churches separate the congregation into women and girls on one side, and men and boys on the other side. Some even have separate doors.

    Ladies, I am with the conservative reformed crowd on this one. Modest Apparel is an issue for the church. You can do something about this issue. The only thing we boys and men can do is not look at you, not pay any attention to you, and only speak with male companions in your company. Please cover up the magnets before you go to church.

    . . .

    There, I have gone and done it now.

    . . . Bob





    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    Most religions have modest attire regulations for both men and women?

    Is this wrong?



    [​IMG]

    Article from New York Times on Women's Modest Clothing, 1917.

    Has the definition of modest clothing changed?



    ...Bob
     
    #20 BobinKy, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2011
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