Challenge still unanswered.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Aaron, Sep 25, 2001.

  1. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    I often hear that the church has always used the "popular styles of the day" in its songs.

    Can anyone find a Gospel song written in the following styles, that was written when the styles were in vogue?

    Vaudeville
    Ragtime
    Charleston
    Razz or Razz-a-ma-tazz
    Swing
    Big Band
     
  2. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,427
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think this sound goes under any of those catagories, but I can offer Rich Mullins "Awesome God" which is in our hymnal and was a popular song of its day.

    Until Next Post, Adam
     
  3. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    At the time that J.S. Bach wrote many of the tunes that are now considered standards in the church, his music caused scandals.

    Remember that, at the time, chants were the only church "music".

    Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery have both done Gospel songs so that takes care of jazz and swing.

    Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers, Emmitt Miller, Leadbelly and Robert Johnson wrote hundreds of blues Gospel tunes.

    Likewise, the Carter Family wrote dozens of Gospel songs and made them standards. I don't know how they would fit into the categories you listed but they were definitely one of the more popular groups of the twenties through the fourties.

    Bill Monroe, the Stanley Brothers and Charlie and Ira Louvin all wrote Gospel songs in a popular style that would have been much more at home in a roadhouse than in church. Today, many of their songs are standards.

    In your opening post, you listed Charleston as a musical style. The Charleston was not a musical style but a dance that would have been done to the jazz music that at the time was popularly called ragtime.

    Speaking of ragtime, Fats Waller and Professor Longhair have both written and performed Gospel music. Many of their songs and their arrangements of old negro spirituals are standards in the church.

    You also listed "vaudeville" as a style of music. Vaudville was not a style of music but a type of theater.

    Swing and Big Band are colloquialisms that refer to the same type of music. Both are a type of jazz.

    Also, I've been a musician since I was 15 and have never heard of "razz or razz-ma-tazz". Please elaborate.

    Aaron, please don't take this the wrong way but half the "musical styles" you listed aren't musical styles at all and the other half are misnamed.

    Could this lack of familiarity with popular music be causing you a problem in your search to see how popular music fits into the church?

    Mike

    http://www.billkirchen.com

    [ April 03, 2002, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  4. myreflection26

    myreflection26
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2001
    Messages:
    476
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whew...I hoped I hadn't missed anything there. My husband and I do Vaudville acts and I thought, ummmm is there a style of music I'm unaware of here? Heheheh

    Sue
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Smoke,

    I know the Charleston is a dance, but Jazz is as broad a category as Rock. Jazz is a form of Rock, though it wasn't called rock until the 1950's.

    Most Jazz, though, in the early part of the 20th century was considered the music of the African American segment. And there is no dispute that the "Negro Spirituals" were not considered mainstream Church music. I specified the Charleston to typify that particular style of Jazz that became Popular with the college students in the late 20's early 30's, and because most people are familiar with the term. If I just said Jazz it would not have been specific enough.

    Razzamatazz or Razzmatazz (I was typing in a hurry when I said Razz) is also a type of Jazz that was very popular in the night clubs frequented by the "white folks" in those days. It's another name for the Jazz folks did the Charleston to. Should I have said "Dixieland Jazz?" Do a google search to find it.

    Again, Vaudeville was a vile form of entertainment that used Jazzy music to create a vile mood. Again, I used it more to denote a period of history. A certain kind of music comes to mind when one says Vaudeville and that's the idea I was trying to get across.

    I heard a man in a music store one day describe Mozart as "Christmas-y." That's what I'm doing.

    Again with Swing and Big Band. Yes they are a form of Jazz. But a certain style of Jazz comes to mind. I would go further and say they are Rock music.

    Anyway, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. I will do some research on the names you dropped. Be back in a few days on this thread.

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  6. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi, Aaron,

    No, being a musician doesn't make me a musicologist but it does give me a little extra insight into different types of music.

    In sixteen years of pickin' and grinnin', I've played rock, country (the real kind not the Garth Brooks stuff they call country today), folk, bluegrass, blues, Gospel, Irish, jazz, Top 40 and even a brief, unfortunate foray into CCM.

    On top of that, both grandparents on my mother's side were musicians. My grandmother was a classically trained pianist and violinist and taught for many years. My grandfather played several instruments (including fiddle, guitar, mandolin, ullean pipes, and tin whistle) and several kinds of music. He won many awards for his fiddle playing. For a short time in the forties and then again in the mid fifties, he had a band with Don Helms of Hank Williams' Drifting Cowboys and occasionally played with Leon MacAullife and Tiny Moore (his cousin) of Bob Wills' Texas Playboys.

    My mother played jazz and R&B piano and even a little country. She appeared occasionally on "The Country Boy Eddie show", a local show in Birmingham, Al. where Tammy Wynette and the Judds got their start. It's also where Porter wagoner first saw Dolly Parton. She also taught for many years and still plays quite a bit, but not professionally.

    After returning from Korea, my dad played guitar in several rockabilly and country bands. Thanks in part to my grandfather, he played on the "Big 'D' Jamboree" and traveled throughout the southeast, appearing on bills with Carl Perkins, Wanda Jackson, Johhny Cash, Conway Twitty, Charline Aurthur, Johnny and Dorsey Burnette and others. Before he died, he spent a lot of time playing guitar, banjo and mandolin just for fun in different local bluegrass bands.
    He finally decided to play just for fun and go back to school to get a real job.

    He went back to Auburn University and by the time he died, he had become a very well respected engineer, even becoming the project manager for the renovation of the Varizano-Narrows Bridge in NYC.

    So Aaron, while I'm not a musicologist (at least not a professional one), I do have a varied background in different types of music.

    [ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

    [ April 11, 2002, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Okay, so far my research has revealed that the names Smoke listed as Gospel musicians were really Jazz artists that did some Gospel singing. Crossover artists if you will.

    Nothing new there, and not even disputed. Elvis Presley sang jazzy Gospel songs too. Doesn't mean they were performed in church. My parents had his records. That was my first exposure to Gospel Rock. Guess what. I never heard it in church. (Until the early 80's).

    I searched in vain for any scandals surrounding Bach and his music, but I'm not finished yet. Is this like the "Luther used bar-tunes" myth?

    The postulation that the only music in church during the Baroque era was chant is scandalous.

    The Carter Family may be one exception. But you can hardly call Bluegrass popular music. BTW, Bluegrass is not sensual.

    The argument was that the CHURCH has always used the popular music of the day, implying that the music used in bars and nightclubs was readily embraced by the church. That is a case that has yet to be made.

    I do see though, that I have to qualify "Gospel song" in the challenge to exclude the "spiritual" waxes of secular artists.

    More to come...

    [ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]

    [ September 29, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  8. preacher

    preacher
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2001
    Messages:
    1,784
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ya better not come around here & say Bluegrass ain't popular! :D Actually a lot of the churches, or mabey I should say groups in the churches around this part of the country play a lot of Bluegrass Gospel.
     
  9. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aaron,

    If my credibility is in doubt, as you say, then why do you feel the need to misrepresent what I say?

    I never claimed that any of the artists I mentioned were "Gospel" artists. In fact I was quite clear and even listed specifically what kind of music they each actually did play.

    They were blues, bluegrass, folk and jazz artists who also wrote or arranged Gospel music.

    As for bluegrass not being popular during the Carter Family's popularity, remember that it wasn't considered bluegrass then. It was just folk music. It didn't really become "bluegrass" until the late 40's and the original incarnation of the Bluegrass Boys with Lester Flatt, Earl Scruggs, Cedric Rainwater and Mac Wiseman (I think I'm forgetting someone but I can't remember who).

    I listed the Carter Family as bluegrass because now, looking back with a 2001 perspective, that's how we think of them but at the time, they were just folk.

    Although artists such as the Stanley Brothers, Louvin Brothers and Hi-Lo Brown were popular then, it still wasn't considered "bluegrass" until that late 40's
    version of Bill Monroe and the Bluegrass Boys.

    In the depression era (when the Carter Family was active), as in the mid-50's through early 70's, there was a great revival in folk music.

    As for the idea that bluegrass isn't sensual, check out "High Lonesome" if it's available. In it, Bill Monroe tells how he and others were condemned by preachers because they used fiddles. It sounds silly now but back then evidently, they were pretty serious about it.

    Having been to IBMA, Bean Blossom, Teluride, Windy Gap, Delawrae Valley, and dozens of other bluegrass festivals and seen tremendous crowds there, I find it hard to believe that you don't think bluegrass is popular.

    Consider the success of recent films "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou", "Songcatcher" and their soundtracks. Both were extremey popular.

    I think it says a lot about the popularity of bluegrass when Bruce springsteen and Steve Earl record with Del McCoury and Ronnie McCoury goes on tour with the Dave Matthews band. Not to mention the fact that Elton John and other popular rock stars were eager to appear on Earl Scruggs new album.

    No one would argue with the successes of bluegrass or bluegrass related artists such as Dolly Parton (whose last two albums were a return to her bluegrass roots and were HUGE successes), Ricky Skaggs, Marty Stuart, the Dixie Chicks, Alison Kraus, Rohnda Vincent, Vince Gill, Diamond Rio, the Dirt Band and others.

    Mike

    http://www.bluegrasscountry.org

    [ April 03, 2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  10. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    [ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  11. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Whew! Didn't realize I was being so nasty!!
     
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    6,179
    Likes Received:
    226
    I was priviledge to be present in a black primitive baptist church when they sang amazing grace as their kindred did when in slavery. I knew the words but the melody I had never heard but it was just as moving or more so as they sang from experience.

    When I sing I sing unto the Lord. The only one I am singing to is my God and he knows my heart. Though we don't use other types of
    christian music in our church as we sing accapella and our voice is the only musical organ we use other are free to worship God in their own manner.

    Tunes and times change but the words of the songs are what makes up the song. I believe it was Robert Vaughn on this board that stated the Psalms were at one time set to music and were searching for the web site for that confirmation.

    If anyone on this board is as old as I am they will certainly remember a song from the 60's called Turn,Turn,Turn by the Byrds. It was none other than Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 set to our generations music.

    Each and every generation must find their place on how they worship God according to the music ministry. Some will go with progression and others will embrace the old ways of their fathers. We are singing unto God and to him alone. If are motives are only for entertaining others then we are singing the song of Zion for the wrong reason... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

    [ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  13. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Aaron, I don't think you were nasty. I just think that in your eagerness to make your point, you just forgot to listen.

    I've talked to you for a while now and I've never known you to be intentionally rude. A little overexcited at times, like all of us at one time or another, but I don't think you've ever done anything liike that on purpose.
     
  14. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    I disagree for two reasons.

    One is that jazz was around long before rock, so it would make more sense to say that rock was a form of jazz. Either way, of course, you'd still be wrong.

    The other is that rock and roll is a musical gumbo. Jazz, hillbilly, blues, folk, R&B, gospel, etc.

    It's not accurate to say that it came from any one genre.

    Mike
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
  16. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually you've posted that link before, and it still isn't convincing.

    The phrase "rock and roll" was around long before the music popularly known as "rock and roll". Nobody's disputing that.

    But the "rock and roll" the music is commonly considered to have begun circa 1948 with artists such as T-Bone Walker.

    Since the link didn't do anything to prove the contrary of either point, I stand confidently by my statement.

    Mike

    [ April 07, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    Okay.
     
  18. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    Finally!

    Mike
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,646
    Likes Received:
    223
    No, not a concession. Just tired of arguing with someone with his eyes closed.
     
  20. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK.

    The whole "rock-is-bad" thing is all yours. In the words of Harry Kalas, I am "ooouuuttttaaaa' heeeeeeerrrrr".
    Mike
     

Share This Page

Loading...