Chapters and verses -- New Revelation?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Oct 16, 2004.

  1. Phillip

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    Here is a thread that you KJVO's feel free to jump right in.

    This is a question I have wondered about due to several postings, especially when missing verses are pointed out.

    If you are KJVO, do you believe the Book name (title), the Chapters and the books are part of the inspiration of the KJV?

    This is open for full debate, KEEP IT DECENT!

    This can also discuss punctuation. Is it inspired?

    Have at it.

    If this gets to be a flame throwing contest, the moderators will shut it down with my blessings. Let's debate the subjects not call each other liars.
     
  2. natters

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    Chapters numbers are usually credited to either Stephen Langton, Archbishop of Canterbury about 1220 A.D., or Cardinal Hugo of Saint Cher about 1240 A.D. Chapter divisions are not always equal between Bibles.

    Verse numbers for the Old Testament were first introduced in 1509 A.D. Verse numbers for the New Testament were first introduced in Stephens 1551 Greek-Latin New Testament, published later in 1555. The first copmlete English Bible to have chapter and verse numbers was the 1560 Geneva. Verse numbers are not always consistent between Bibles.

    Punctuation was not originally part of scripture. Since its introduction in English Bibles, it has changed considerably, even between editions of the same translation (e.g. KJV).

    Book titles are a matter of tradition (i.e. Mark probably didn't call his writing "The Gospel According to Saint Mark"). It is interesting to note that some of the Old Testament names we use are from the Greek Septuagint instead of from the Hebrew Masoretic (e.g. Genesis vs. Bereshith, Exodus vs. Shemoth, Leviticus vs. Vayikra, Numbers vs. Bemidbar, Deuteronomy vs. Debarim)
     
  3. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    If you are KJVO, do you believe the Book name (title), the Chapters and the books are part of the inspiration of the KJV?

    --------------------------------------------------


    The titles of the books, yes. The chapter numbers, and chapters titles of these books- I do not think so, however they could very well be, and I would not say outright that they absolutely aren't either. I look at them as helpful tools, but not inspired as the scriptures (the words of the Lord) are.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  4. rsr

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    Why the titles?

    After all, they are Latin/Greek translations from the Hebrew/Amamaic/Greek.

    Beginnings
    Freedom from oppression
    The Law of the priests
    The census
    The second law of the priests
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

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    Philip, (by the way, my real name is Philip!), Good point! [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Often, KJVOnlyists saying NIV or any versions take verses out of God's word. Maybe they are right.

    But, during Early Church history, there was no chapter and verse. Apostle Paul wrote of his 13 books as epistles like as letter.

    Chapters and verses were not yet introduce to Bible till several hundreds years later after John penned.

    I think, the reason, the chapters and verses were introduced to the Bible, because of the paragraphs, grammar or sentence. The purpose of use chapter is for to break it into topics or passages. The purpose of use verses is for to break them into sentences.

    All versions do not effect us on the doctrines, because nearly all versions telling the same doctrines base upon Jesus Christ, and salvation. There are no difference between versions comparing with KJV. All of these teaching the same doctrines focus on Jesus Christ and salvation.

    Also, I believe the third reason why the chapters and verses were added to the Bible, because these are much easier for us to remember and memorize where to find the passage or quote in the Bible.

    Nothing wrong to have chapters and verses added unto the Bible, because these are much easier for us to remember or memorize where to find them in it.

    Philip, GOOD THOUGHTS!! [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. rsr

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    Bless you.
     
  7. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    But, during Early Church history, there was no chapter and verse. Apostle Paul wrote of his 13 books as epistles like as letter.
    --------------------------------------------------


    It is not the verse numbers being omitted, it is the words or the scriptures that ARE OMITTED that is the problem.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  8. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    All versions do not effect us on the doctrines, because nearly all versions telling the same doctrines base upon Jesus Christ, and salvation. There are no difference between versions comparing with KJV. All of these teaching the same doctrines focus on Jesus Christ and salvation.
    --------------------------------------------------


    All modern versions have ALTERED the words of the Lord. This is serious, and dangerous, and God clearly warns about not doing it. What God spent the time providing, has been tampered with. Now, if God did not feel it necessary for our spiritual health, happiness, protection, he would not have provided it. To say it does not matter that some of it has been taken away from in the modern versions, is just plain your opinion, and God has said differently. Every single word of God was given for a reason, that only He knows. However, the testimony of Jesus Christ and the truth has been not only weakened, but cause for confusion, doubt of God's words and division among the bretheren. God is not the author of confusion but of peace, in all the churches of God.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Also, I believe the third reason why the chapters and verses were added to the Bible, because these are much easier for us to remember and memorize where to find the passage or quote in the Bible.
    --------------------------------------------------


    To this I agree with you on. God bless you.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. Pastor_Bob

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    Phillip, I attempted to respond to your PM but your box is full. You'll need to delete some PM's in order to receive any more.
     
  11. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Why the titles?
    --------------------------------------------------


    Because Jesus Christ himself speaks of them and names them by name:


    Luke 3

    4. As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


    Mark 7

    6. He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


    Luke 4

    17. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,


    Luke 24

    44. And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


    John 20

    30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    John 21

    20. Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
    21. Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
    22. Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
    23. Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
    24. This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
    25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


    Acts 1

    20. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.


    ...etc.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  12. robycop3

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    I believe the present numberings were first used in the GENEVA BIBLE, and that the AV simply followed suit since this system was already familiar to most English readers.

    Inspired by God? Very likely! The book, chapter, & verse numbering system makes it very easy for anyone to locate any given verse.
     
  13. TC

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    However, it also makes it easier for someone to pull a verse out of context and apply it in a way that reading the whole passage does not support. Also, the chapter divisions will break up stories in the middle. Because of this, I think that the chapter and verse divisions are to arbitrary to be inspired by God. They may be helpful in some ways, but they are also a hinderance in others.
     
  14. Phillip

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    I deleted a lot. I had no idea that so many had piled up over the years. Sorry, 'bout that.
     
  15. Phillip

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    So, how do you explain the many changes between the 1611 version and the 1769 version that you now use? Go to the thread on differences between KJV versions and read Dr. Bob's referenced links.

    This is evidence you cannot overlook because it is plain for everyone to see.

    We have already proven wording and phrase changes, not just spelling changes. Over 400 I believe have been corrected.
     
  16. pastorjeff

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    The titles of the Hebrew OT are different than ours. Which is inspired if they are inspired. Chapters and verses not inspired either. Some breaks in the text are in the worst places, breaking up sentences and cutting off thoughts by chapter and verse. It's a silly idea to say something is inspired that was not there to begin with ( unless you believe in second inspiration ).
     
  17. Phillip

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    Amen, pastorjeff [​IMG]
     
  18. Deacon

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    Interestingly enough even some of the major book divisions may be artificial or added to the text after writing.

    The Pentateuch (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) was written as a single book, the book of Moses (2 Chronicles 25:4; 35:12; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 13:1; and Mark 12:26).

    Rob
     
  19. pastorjeff

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    Many of the books have been seperated for our benefit. Ezra/Nehemiah ,and the Twelve (minor prophets).
     

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