Charismatic Take over of Baptist Churches

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Kiffin, Apr 17, 2001.

  1. Kiffin

    Kiffin
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    In my years of ministry I have noticed at least 4 attempted takeovers of Baptist Churches by Charismatics. All were unsucessfull in the end but resulted in great depletion of the Baptist churches numbers and finances. In at least 2 of the cases, the Charismatic members left and formed a rival Charismatic church.

    What I have heard is that Charismatics infiltrate into the membership or some in the Church change to Charismatic theology. I hear more and more about this and was curious of others who hear or know of this happening?

    Kiffin (formerly Midlander1655)
     
  2. Don

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    I actually have experience with a Baptist pastor who thought about using this tactic--in order to get a bigger church. And his methods might be described as somewhat charismatic in nature, even though he would never admit it, and would be offended if you told him that.

    Granted, I might have had something to do with the situation I'm about to describe, because we were in the market for a new church building. One day while he and I were talking about a particular building--in use by a different congregation, but that congregation consisting of only about 5 members--, I mentioned something about sending our members over one-by-one. However, I made it clear at the time that I was joking, and I also made it abundantly clear that a certain building in town was more suited to what we were looking for.

    However, after I left this man's church--for reasons best discussed in another thread--I learned that he made the same suggestion to his family and a couple of church members about a different building. After getting a response of shock, he laughed it off.

    I fully accept responsibility that I might have influenced this; however, there are other factors involved that tell me this man was serious about the suggestion until he realized he wouldn't receive any support. These factors include (and these are facts) that this man has broken off of two other churches (that I know about) and started his own.

    Boiling it down, it's a despicable and deplorable act, and just about qualifies as "evil." And I'm sorry I ever put the thought in his head.

    [ April 18, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]
     
  3. SPAM

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    Don, Just 4 weeks ago, I began pastoring Grace Baptist Church of New Caney, Texas. God led my family and 3 other families to start it. One very big reason I feel God would have me start this endeavor is for what I've been exposed to. My father was a minster for years until suffering a career/preaching stroke that ended that portion of his life. He can't speak, but if he could, I know how he would feel on this subject.

    Over my life I have seen one person after another fall into this trap. Being charasmatic used to be a honorable term. I think of other verbage that used to fall into that category, {i.e gay, holy, etc...} but given the times, has skewed its meaning. The one stance I will not sway on is being charasmatic.

    I feel deep within my soul, that it will destroy the spiritual effectiveness of a church. I have seen many churches cave into the pressure and accept any whim that comes along; generally ushered in by the music they advocate. Years later, in some cases sooner, they are left with an empty feeling about who Christ really is. He is more than the emotion that drives that train. He is Lord of the Valley also. Most charasmatic folks I know completely fall apart when things aren't just so-so.

    I know basing worship on emotions is erroneous, just take a look at Jesus' life. Talk about suffering persecution. He faced valley experiences daily, but He taught perspective.

    I was a youth director for 8 years during the 90's and the one thing that I harped on was truth. Tell that to a generation of young people being raised to accept every lifestyle and music as free expression and you will be lonely in your stance. Being charasmatic was very popular then and now. But, the Lord mentions in scriptures that He never changes-should we?

    I am not advocating stick in the mud legalism, that too is killing our churches, but I will say that a lot of the reason people have shifted to being charasmatic is to find joy again. Even it is incorrect.

    Being a baptist used to be a good thing. To date I am a baptist; am proud to be one, but I have asked God to direct my steps as pastor that I not be swayed to this evil. Nor, will I apologize for preching truth concerning it. My thought is this however, there are many baptists that should change their religious tag, because they are far removed from the covenant the baptist church set in print. And, at the rate a lot of the baptist circles are going, I am not convinced many of them are staying true to scripture. I hope you are encouraged to know that there are many true believers that still believe in the inerrant scriptures, still leans on Him in daily walk, and still believes a revival can be spurned today-just not one given by the charasmatic approach. Psalm 127: 1 still is true.

    Sorry to be so long winded, but this is a topic I could go on and on about. The nerve has been struck.
     
  4. Oldvol75

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    I also had an experience with these folks.

    I had a man and his family start coming to my church. The first day he was there he told me that he had been called to preach. He was attended a Charsimatic church and told me,"that the Lord had directed him back to the Baptist church!"

    To make a long story short, they left after about 6 months, I haven't heard from them since.
     
  5. Squire Robertsson

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    It is the same old wine in new skins. Satan makes it a habit to steal the work of Godly folk for his own use. Remember Harvard, Yale and Princeton, et al were founded as Christian institutions and are now as Godless as MU (Moskovski Universitate). As best as I can observe, he has done the same with the old line Holiness/AGs and the charasmatic movement. And now the old liar is turning to good Baptist churchs that he could not foul up some other way.

    Keith

    [ April 24, 2001: Message edited by: The Squire ]
     
  6. Don

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    Spam, tell me about this nerve I struck. I'm not sure how I struck it.

    The man I described actually stated once in a sermon that maybe he was too charismatic for the congregation that he was preaching to; but that maybe that congregation needed to get more whooping and hollering going in the service.

    I like to shout an occasional "Amen!" from the pew; but I don't believe in a cheerleading service.

    I know one member of this man's congregation who was fired from the youth pastor position because he was allowing young men to get on the bus wearing earrings. He also allowed his own son to dye his hair. This pastor I've been describing told the man that his son must not be saved, and that the man's salvation was in question, and that he wouldn't allow a man who would let kids wear earrings or dye their hair be the youth pastor.

    This man's family was devastated. Basically, they were all told they weren't good enough. They left that church, in anger and in pain.

    But you know what? That man still drags--and I mean, drags--his family back to that church every once in a while. Why? Because he likes the style of preaching. I actually had occasion to talk with this man for a few minutes, and he told me he had considered joining a local Pentecostal church, except he couldn't get past that "tongues" thing. Reason for almost joining: He liked the style of preaching.

    Next time I get a chance to talk with this man, I'm going to have to ask him: Is all he's looking for is preaching that satisfies his flesh? At the cost of destroying his family?
     
  7. Contender

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    Satan's ministers are also transformed into angels of light (not angels of darkness).!
     
  8. Guitar Twanging Pastor

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    you know friend, your post is intriguing. It almost sounds like a "conspiracy theory". At any rat, it sure sounds ominous.

    In my ministry, and in 39 years of church, I've seen that too. BUT I've also seen

    1) Baptist takeovers of Charismatic churches
    (struggling with one of those right now)

    2) Calvinistic takeovers of Arminian churches, and vice-versa

    3) super charismatic takeovers of mildly charismatic churches and vice versa

    ...ad nauseum

    Ever hear of a "power struggle"? I don't think it's necessarily rooted in a denomination or religious movement. I think it is rooted in human greed and the hypnotic nature of power and control!

    Ease up on the conspiracy theory! We aint out to take over every Baptist church in town. I do freely admit we have our wackos, but you do too (ever hear of Hammond Indiana...ahem).

    The G Man

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kiffin:
    In my years of ministry I have noticed at least 4 attempted takeovers of Baptist Churches by Charismatics. All were unsucessfull in the end but resulted in great depletion of the Baptist churches numbers and finances. In at least 2 of the cases, the Charismatic members left and formed a rival Charismatic church.

    What I have heard is that Charismatics infiltrate into the membership or some in the Church change to Charismatic theology. I hear more and more about this and was curious of others who hear or know of this happening?

    Kiffin (formerly Midlander1655)
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  9. TomVols

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    Not really. All of the "hostile takeover" attempts I have seen have been Independent Baptists trying to take over Southern Baptist churches or intentionally fracturing or stealing money from SBC churches. I have recently discovered this is not an isolated type of thing. One pastor said that two different Independent Baptist cliques admitted to him that they were part of a larger effort and knew of larger efforts of IBs to infiltrate and attempt to bring down SBC churches.

    [ June 21, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]
     
  10. MagicDar

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    This is unbelievable!!!! Do christians understand that we are in this race TOGETHER???????????? I am charismatic. I believe in the baptism in the spirit, speaking in tounges, prophecy and all the other gifts mentioned in scripture. I also attend a non denom church that is basically charismatic and we dance and during the sermon we have people verbally agreeing with the truth spoken. The point and goal we are all after no matter where you stand or what denomination you are should always be to win people to Jesus. I came from the baptist church, where I should say I was not growing anymore to a church that I have grown so much to the point where I'm hungry for more I'm totally desperate for more of Jesus which is where every christian should be. Charismatics are not all correct and neither is any other denomination including baptists.

    Dar
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Some years back a family of Free Lutherans came to EBC in Casper and joined. Everyone rejoiced. Over the next year, 3-4 more families of that same ilk came to join this small ifb congregation.

    Then the ulterior motive became evident. They simply wanted to get enough people into the membership, feigning doctrinal agreement, until they could outvote the "old time baptists" at some business meeting and take over the church.

    They would get a building and bankroll, then change it from Baptist to Free Lutheran and change the doctinal statement. It scares such churches for many years about admitting new members in any significant number for fear of their work being usurped.

    Ain't just Baptists or Charismaniacs doing unethical things in our churches . . .
     
  12. r5dots

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    I'm so happy to hear opinions from both sides...it really helps me to make a more informed decision about what I believe. Can someone define for me what is meant by "charasmatic"? I visited a Baptist church in my home town when we first moved here,and they played guitars and drums, swayed back and forth and raised their hands in the air but I didn't see anyone speak in tongues. Would this be considered charasmatic? I'm interested to hear your replies.
     
  13. atestring

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    The term "Charismatic is a very broad term but comes from the greek word
    " Charisma" which in interpreted "gift" or "gifts."

    This is usually a reference given to groups that believe that spiritual gifts ( ton pneumaticon) mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 are still in operation today as opposed to the "cessation" mentality that began to be taught starting at the turn of the 20th century, that was taught by B.B. warfield.

    At the turn of the 20th century there was a great revival (though not the first of its nature) in Los Angelos CA in a little
    mission on Azusa Street had an impact globally. Most of the groups and people that became involved were not well recieved in churches and were ask to leave churches and as a result the name given to these people was "Pentecostals" because of the event in Acts 2 took place.
    Several Denominations and fellowships were started by these presbryterians, Baoptist, Methodist etc people that had benn kicked out of their churches.

    In the late 60's what had happened in the lives at Azusa Street was to no longer be confined to "Pentecostal" churches but spread into the lives of the people that were not in "Pentecostal" churches but rather Baptist, Methodist , Church of Christ,Catholic,Episcopal,etc began to experience the same personal events that had happened in the Book of Acts. Many of these people did not want to join the Pentecostals because of style of worship , locations of congregations, denominational govt., and economic similarities,etc. and when they were ask to leave their churches they formed churches that were made up of various backgrounds including Pentecostals.
    The name Charismatic was a name that was used to distinguish them.
    The word Charimatic is more common in our language today and does not necessarily refer to gifts that are spiritual gifts.
    Sometimes we refer to a person having a "Charismatic Personality."
    This means that he/she has a gifted personality or is persuasiveor has a dynamic smile.
    The reason (In my opinion) that many churches are having changes in their style of services that some may call "charismatic"
    is because the world is tired of boring church services that drags on forever even though most servics are shorter than a typical church service would have been decades ago. The fact that Pentecostals/Charismatic churches and movements are fast growing in the U.S. and even more so around the world has made various churches take notice since many churches are declining and having very little effect in our society.
    There are scripture references to using drums , guitars, dancing, etc. to praise and worship God ( Psalm 150 is just one refernece and Ephesians 5:19 psalms is from the greek word psalmos which means lyrics sung to musical accompaniment).

    Not everyone is happy about this but jesus told us that we can't put our new wine in old wineskins&gt;
     
  14. MagicDar

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    Please keep in mind as well, just because you don't see or hear someone pray in tounges or speak in tounges does not mean they don't do it. I went to the church I currently go to for about 3 or 4 years before I actually heard anyone get up before the congregation and speak in tounges, I might add that there also was an interpreter imediately following. I do know that our church actively prays in tounges but you rarely hear it unless your in a small group of people praying. I personally pray in tounges when I am alone. Actually the way I recieved the baptism in the spirit was our church had prayer school on wednesday nights where one of our leaders (who now has his own church) taught us about prayer and praying in tounges in depth. The last night of it on the way to the church I looked at my husband and said I am ready to recieve the baptism in the spirit, I had the confidence and knew that I was ready cause in years before I didn't understand what it was about but wanted it and this time I knew it was for me. I didn't know that after the class that night I would recieve the baptism but I know it was for real. I had always thought that when you recieve it that it felt like a bolt of lightning or something, but in reality what happened is I was praying and literally an authority in Jesus rose up in me like I never before experienced (not that you don't have authority in Jesus without this because you do) but anyway I began to speak in tounges and an anger towards the enemy came over me. I don't base my salvation or anything on feelings but I do believe that God gave us emotions and feelings for a reason, but not to be abused.

    Dar
     
  15. Ars

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    The whole Charismatic movement, from my perspective is all about getting a good feeling. Most of the literature and information I've read deals with how people feel when they go to church. They have this misunderstanding that going to church is suppose to give you a warm fuzzy feeling. Although it is important to feel welcome and accepted at church, it is not about the "warm fuzzies". Church is about learning about God, Jesus, Salvation, the correct way to live etc. These things should bring you joy. Not the music (Music is to prepare our hearts for worship.), not the swaying of the arms or the "slaying of the spirit".

    The scripture teaches us to be sober. 1 Thessalonians 5:6&8, 2 Timothy 4:5, 1 Peter 1:13, 1 Peter 4:7 and 1 Peter 5:8. And, I took the time to look up the use of the word sober in this verses as well. From the Greek nepho: to be sober, to be calm and collected in spirit. The Charismatic movement does none of this. We are to trust with our hearts, not in our heart.

    Yes, I am very passionate about this issue. I do not apologize for that. The Charismatic movement has done more to bring confusion and division into the churches than anything else. Surely we can't believe that God would send division and strife into churches.

    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
    I Corinthians 1:10


    In the eleventh chapter of I Corinthians we learn that the divisions of the Corinthian church were caused by heresies. And in the next three chapters we find Paul dealing with the false beliefs about tongues. Now that we have the whole written New Testament (which the early Christians had not) and Christianity established as the result of the miracles, we need no further miracle to attest the truth.

    Dave

    [ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: Dajuid ]
     
  16. MagicDar

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    I really wish people would find out for themselves instead of reading books about denominations. Each church is different, charismatics have gotton a bad name for so long and I think its so funny how it seems that we are looked upon as "holy rollers" who depend on a "good feeling" in church or in life to get us thru. In my church, every part of the service has a reason and a purpose, it is so far from confusion that it would blow the mind of every skeptic watching. Whatever part of the service is happening, if anything would seem confusing our pastor stops and explains from scripture what is going on why we do it so if anyone there has a question about it, it is confirmed scripturally imediately. Our worship service is very important, the dancing is just a part of the celebration and the congregations expression of love to God, there is nothing wrong with that.

    Lately we have been dealing with practical issues in the church such as family relations and the foundations of a christian life. I have to say, the foundations that I've been taught in the independant baptist church are the exact same foundations that my church currently teaches, we just happen to also believe in the gifts of the spirit and there is not a confused bone in my body where this is concerned.

    Dar
     
  17. Ars

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
    Our worship service is very important, the dancing is just a part of the celebration and the congregations expression of love to God, there is nothing wrong with that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    This "dancing", is that the dancing that I've heard of called "Dancing in the Spirit"?
     
  18. MagicDar

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    I suppose you could call it dancing in the spirit, I just call it dancing and when I close my eyes and worship Jesus, I begin dancing in love and adoration to God. This has really increased my worship. -Dar
     
  19. DHK

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    Quote from Dar:
    "In reality what happened is I was praying and literally an authority in Jesus rose up in me like I never before experienced (not that you don't have authority in Jesus without this because you do) but anyway I began to speak in tounges and an anger towards the enemy came over me."

    Can you explain what tongue (that is language) that you spoke in? How do you know that this emotional experience was really from God and not from any other source? Have you tried to put your experience of "speaking in tongues" in the context of 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul rebukes those who are speaking in tongues?
    Note the restrictions that Paul gives against speaking in tongues, as well as the arguments put forward not to speak in tongues:
    1. It is the least important gift listed in 12:28.
    2. It ceased with the completion of the N.T. (13:8-13)
    3. Don't speak in tongues because no man understands you (14:1-3)
    4. Because it does not edify anyone (14:3,4)
    5. Because 5 words of understanding are better than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (14:19)
    6. Because the gift of tongues was given as a sign to the unbelieving Jew. If therefore there is no unbelieving Jew present it is an unscriptural gift (14:21,22)
    7. There should be no more than 2 or at the most 3 that should speak in tongues, and then always turn by turn
    8. There must be an interpreter, if there is
    no interpreter he must be silent! (27,28)
    9. The women must keep silence in the church. It is not permitted for them to speak. It is a shame for women to speak in the church. (34,35)

    I dare say that most Charismatics either have not read 1 Corinthians 14, do not understand it, deliberately disobey it, or more than likely--don't really care what it teaches because their experience is more important than the Scriptures.
    Tongues ceased at the end of the first century, as did prophecy and the other sign gifts when the new testament was completed (when "that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away"); and so tongues ceased.

    Standing by the Scriptures
    DHK
     
  20. PreacherDave

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    Having "been there, done that" (Charismatic) for over 20 years, we can affirm that what MacArthur & many others have written about the C/Mov is absolutely TRUE!! Yes, there are a few "thinking" Charismatics out there; but they stop thinking when it comes to their sacred cows--tongues, prophecy, dancing...etc. Then they prefer the experience over Christ & His Word.
    Pray for those who are true believers, who are deceived by the C/Movement! God brought us out, we've seen Him bring others too.
    The Wife (Tamra)
     

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