Chastisement ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Precepts, Jan 24, 2004.

  1. Precepts

    Precepts
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    I recently was informed in another topic that the wrod in our King James Bible, that "chastisement" is the wrong definition for the Greek word in Hebrews.

    NOTE: I am not trying to start a KJB/MV debate, only asking those to address the term and help determine the use of chastisement and it's full meaning. So just for clarity, I have posted the following as to determine it's meaning as we find it in the Word of God and in the Greek:

    3809 paideia paideia pahee-di’-ah

    from 3811; TDNT-5:596,753; n f

    AV-chastening 3, nurture 1, instruction 1, chastisement 1; 6

    1) the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body
    2) whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, esp. by correcting mistakes and curbing passions.
    2a) instruction which aims at increasing virtue
    2b) chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment)
     
  2. LRL71

    LRL71
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    Where in Hebrews are you finding this? Please cite the verse(s) where this is found.

    I know of another word that has a similar meaning in Greek, neutheteo (admonish)(see Ephesians 6:4 and I Cor. 10:11), but I think that the Greek word you mentioned is a bit 'stronger' than 'admonish'. Biblical counseling is usually known as 'neuthetic' counseling, and it is certainly a strong statement to believers in correction and instruction in godliness.

    Hebrews 3:13 has (parakaleite), which means exhort or charge. Another strong meaning, but usually meant to be 'positive' in the thought of exhorting/reinforcing to the believer to hold to his/her confidence in Christ.

    OK, I've read further in my Greek NT (UBS 4th), and I have found the word 'paideuei' (chastise, discipline) in Hebrews 12:6 (and following, the word is used in the text as a verb in the perfect and imperfect tenses, and also used as a noun!). The ESV and NRSV use 'discipline' (and noun form, teachers, not found in the ESV or NRSV texts-- very interesting! Perhaps the translation should be, "Furthermore, we had fathers according to the flesh, and we respected them as disciplining teachers,....."). The idea here of 'chastise' and 'chastiser' is somewhat foreign to the meaning of the text, and this is why the MV's use 'discipline' rather than 'chastise'. The picture here is referring to the father/child relationship to their discipline and rearing rather than the authoritarian's relationship to the subject.

    The use of the TDNT (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) is helpful as a dictionary, but a good working knowledge of the Greek grammar and the context of the passage greatly helps in understanding the meaning of this text. The KJV uses more archaic language than the modern versions, and therefore the meaning of 'chastise' is different to the modern person today than what it meant 400 years ago. The use of 'discipline' is contemporary, and its meaning is more understood today. This is why the MV's use discipline rather than chastise.

    [ January 25, 2004, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: LRL71 ]
     
  3. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    I don't see a problem with the use of the word "chastisement." Chastening is a near synonym of discipline and the words are related to training.
     
  4. Precepts

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    LR71,

    I read your post and that is exactly right in the defining of chastisement. The father/son relationship is the understanding between the twp as the father having the experience of life and the duty to correct his son. But that does not go w/o saying that a father would never abuse his son in the respect and love for his offspring/son.

    If we don't hold to the root meanings of a word, we'll let this world's views change our entire language and turn on us and rend with it.

    The world's view of chastisement has become that of abuse, but we as loving fathers would never abuse our children. But we would "chastise" them in love.

    I am 43, and the word "gay" meant to me as a child to be happy and free, joyous and full of glee. The world has alterd that definition to mean a sodomite, but when I first hear the word I think of the first understanding and then because this world is becoming more and more corrupt, I then think of the latter.
     
  5. LRL71

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    A good thought, I think, was to correctly define what chastisement is, especially since it truly has lost its fuller meaning over the centuries. Discipline is equally strong a definition for the use in this instance, although I would agree that chastisement is also equally tenable. It is sad that the word 'chastisement' is used so infrequently in today's English language, although the word 'discipline', IMHO, is just as good, but not necessarily better. The use of the word 'discipline' has negative connotations to it in our today's English, where I believe that both the negative and positive qualities of chastisement/discipline are being meant here in Hebrews 12. An OT reference for this verse can be found in Deut. 6:7, where both positive and negative chastisement/discipline are being meant.

    Unfortunately, we aren't in the driver's seat when it comes to the whims of the English language; it changes on us whether we like it or not. I don't think that we, as believers, can stop or even slow the progression of the English language. Your example of the usage of "gay" is a supreme example of the corruption (in my view) of the English language. Even the word 'homosexual' does not bring any visualization of shame to the common English speaker. Personally, I prefer faggot or sodomite myself!

    Something similar happened to Greek, come to think about this subject: Classic Greek from about the fourth century B.C. had changed to the Koine Greek of the NT in about the same period of time (roughly 400 years). I think that I had come across some articles regarding this phenomenon and the fact that people contemporary to the writing of the NT in the first century were complaining the same thing: their language changed!
     
  6. Precepts

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    LR71,

    I see by your post the apparent truth to "being lost in translation" is what happens over time concerning the definition of the words of our language.

    Isn't it the fault of the more modern sense of a term to argue that the previously understood usage of any word is wrong by today's standard?

    What I am saying is that the understood definition of chastisement does have the connotation of discipline, but not to the degree to limit it only as a punishment. Therefore context of the term denotes it's definition in practice and application. Just as much it would be wrong for me to say "discipline" would not fit into Hebrews 12, but to the degree of modernists to say the word chastisement is too harsh to fit the context is equally error, since "discipline" is found in the definition of "chastisement".

    Wherefore, contextual meaning determines the use of any word, whether "archaic" or "modern".

    The problem occurs when one defines discipline without the connotation of punishment and uses that to attack and disannul the true rendering of chastisement.

    I believe what we are facing is the onslaught of the "moral majority" raping our minds by forcing "new" meanings into our langauge.

    I failed as a young man to take advantage of my chances to learn more in this area, but I find that my understanding is confirmed by your experience and knowledge of history.

    What I have found to be true is the device that is at work in this problematic episode of the changing of our language is somewhat rooted in Marxism; that which is determined to undermine our heritage and destroy us within.

    I believe discussions like this are necessary preventative medicine to avoid the detrimental effect of Marxism. For those who may be unfamiliar, Marxism is the purpose to take over a free society and destroy the sovereignty of any nation by undermining and denigration of it's foundations. We're facing this today as Americans by the demoralization of our founding fathers by accusing them by "their newly adopted standards.

    I know this is only a hint towards what it would take an entire book comprised of thousands of pages to discuss, but necessary to maintain our heritage by standing firm upon our foundation.

    Marxism is nearly communism and our society is rooted by the invasion of that "disease". It's evidence lies in the political correctness/socialism and liberal agenda to change our perspective of truth.

    I thank the Lord for people who don't change at every wind of doctrine and by the whims of today's method of social equivelence.

    Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
     

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