Chickenhawks

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Ps104_33, Aug 17, 2005.

  1. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33
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    In a reply to a recent post a certain poster compiled a long list of democrats with impressive military records and, of course, a long list of republicans who "didnt serve". I guess the implication was, if you never served in the military and/or were involved in combat, then one is not qualified to speak on matters of national security. Talk about disenfranchisement. That would leave out about 80% of the populace. I am sure he could come up with just as long a list of republicans who served and a long list of democrats who didnt.
    Here are a few more statesmen who didnt serve.

    John Adams,
    Benjamin Franklin,
    Thomas Jefferson,
    John Hancock,
    James Madison,
    Abraham Lincoln,
    Woodrow Wilson .

    I guess this individual would subscribe to the philosphy of Michael Moore, in defining a "chickenhawk" on his site:

    "A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person's youth."

    So anyone on this board, which includes myself, who has never served in the military, is no longer qualified to speak on matters of defense or national security.
    source
     
  2. mioque

    mioque
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    "I guess the implication was, if you never served in the military and/or were involved in combat, then one is not qualified to speak on matters of national security. Talk about disenfranchisement. That would leave out about 80% of the populace."
    "
    Starship Troopers, the infamous novel by Robert Heinlein describes such a society.

    Anyhow if getting shot at by securityguards while tresspassing on corporate property and participating in rioting (including being shot at by the police, getting teargassed, watercannonned and being attacked with a club) counts as having combat experience, than I still get to talk about war related issues.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. church mouse guy

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    I was thinking that Abraham Lincoln served in the Blackhawk War?
     
  4. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver
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    John Adams,

    Benjamin Franklin was 70 years old when the Revolution started, a wee bit long in the tooth to serve effectively.

    John Hancock, Born 1735, served as President of the Continential Congress during part of the Revolution. Had severe health problems, not a good effective solider.

    Thomas Jefferson, Born 1743, served as Governor of Virginia during the Revolutionary War.

    James Madison, Born 1751, served in the Orange County, Virginia militia during the revolution. His father was colonel of the regiment. Madison was not the most robust character of his age.

    Abraham Lincoln. Born 1809, DID serve in the Blackhawk War.

    Woodrow Wilson. Born 1856, a bit young for the Civil War, and a bit old for the Spanish American War.
     
  5. Dragoon68

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    I'm guessing the list your writing about is the one that was posted by ASLANSPAL, three times so far, on the thread about "How Many Liberals it Takes to Win a War".

    As far as I can tell, he posted the listing in an attempt to "prove" that more liberal Democrats in public service had military service than conservative Republicans. The validity of the information presented - or not presented - is highly questionable. I don't know what the absolute statistics are on this and doubt they would be conclusive. He seems to have misunderstood the point of the thread which was that liberal thinking in matters of national defense doesn't win wars verses an implication that one party or the other had more veterans of military service in public office. Who knows for sure what he was thinking?

    My opinion is that military service is not required to have a valid opinion about matters of national security. We all have opinions - good ones and bad ones - about all kinds of things with which we have no direct experience. If that were a illegitimate absolute requirement, then only doctors could discuss medial issues, lawyers legal issues, carpenters building construction, police law enforcement, politicians politics, etc. In each of these cases those with experience bring credibility to the technical aspects of what they do but they certainly don't have an exclusive right to all opinions of the matters especially as it effects everyone whom they serve.

    Having military service certainly can make you far more understanding of what's actually required to defend our liberty in that way. It does, in many cases, bring about a certain level of common sense and reality to one's though processes about the true price of liberty. Having extensive professional military service certainly facilities a solid technical understanding of it! However, there are people of every political affiliation who've served honorably as well as not at all. I've found fellow veterans - typically highly liberal - with whom I can't agree with on anything political and others - typically highly conservative - with whom I share deep convictions.

    On the other hand, when persons with no military service start spreading lies, exaggerations, and distortions about the military or those who have served, then their gross ignorance or evil motives must be challenged by those who know better. Many persons, indeed, have no idea what the military is really about, how it works, nor can they separate truth from fiction. That's what leads many veterans to resent comments from non-veterans.

    I view honorable military service as a strong plus provided all other qualifications for a specific position are in order. I don't view the lack of it as an absolute disqualification.

    All those who serve honorably, deserve credit for it. All those who did not serve but would have if called, deserve no dishonor for not serving. Only those that served dishonorably or refused to serve when called, deserve no honor.
     
  6. church mouse guy

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    It used to be that a candidate for office had to have had some military experience. However, nowadays the sons of the rich go to graduate school and then take high-paying jobs in the business world without ever having spent a day in the defense of the system that gives them the largest rewards in the world.

    I am old so it doesn't make much difference but I think that young people would be wise to write it in their little books that only a man who had served in the military should be President.
     
  7. ASLANSPAL

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    This topic has nothing what so ever to do with
    the other topic and the supposition here is
    totally flawed but by all means you are welcome
    to it..but you assumed to much..the other thread
    had to do with a very biased poem that divided
    and did not unite and I just showed that prominent
    leaders from left to right do fight.


    [​IMG]

    I'm guessing the list your writing about is the one that was posted by ASLANSPAL, three times so far, on the thread about "How Many Liberals it Takes to Win a War".

    Well to let the people know what you are referring to Dragoon68 lets be fair and let
    them see for themselves as a reference and within
    context at least you could have done would be
    to link to it.

    FYI


    Democrats
    * Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
    * David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
    * Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
    * Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan.
    1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
    * Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor,
    Vietnam.
    * Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
    * John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze
    Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
    * Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze
    Star, Korea.
    * Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star &
    Bronze Star, Vietnam.
    * Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
    * Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve,
    1968-74.
    * Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army
    Reserve 1979-91.
    * Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star
    and seven campaign ribbons.
    * Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam,
    DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.
    * Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple
    Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
    * Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne,
    Purple Heart.
    * Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in
    Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.
    * Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
    * Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
    * Chuck Robb: Vietnam
    * Howell Heflin: Silver Star
    * George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.
    * Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments.
    Entered draft but received #311.
    * Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. Graduate of Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD.
    * Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
    * John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal
    with 18 Clusters.
    * Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII.
    * Paul Hackett: Major, USMC, Operation Iraqi Freedom.

    Republicans
    * Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
    * Tom Delay: did not serve.
    * Roy Blunt: did not serve.
    * Bill Frist: did not serve.
    * Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
    * Rick Santorum: did not serve.
    * Trent Lott: did not serve.
    * Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the
    last by marriage.
    * John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to
    teach business.
    * Jeb Bush: did not serve.
    * Karl Rove: did not serve.
    * Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man
    who attacked Cleland's patriotism.
    * Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
    * Vin Weber: did not serve.
    * Richard Perle: did not serve.
    * Douglas Feith: did not serve.
    * Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
    * Richard Shelby: did not serve.
    * Jon Kyl: did not serve.
    * Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
    * Christopher Cox: did not serve.
    * Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
    * Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight
    instructor.
    * George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year
    Air National Guard tour of duty; got assigned to Alabama so he could
    campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.
    * Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a
    non-combat role making movies.
    * B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting
    was over in Korea.
    * Phil Gramm: did not serve.
    * John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of
    Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
    * Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
    * John M. McHugh: did not serve.
    * JC Watts: did not serve.
    * Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although
    continued in NFL for 8 years.
    * Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National
    Guard.
    * Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
    * George Pataki: did not serve.
    * Spencer Abraham: did not serve.
    * John Engler: did not serve.
    * Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
    * Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army
    base.
    * John Bolton: "I didn't want to die in some South Asian rice paddy. . ."

    Pundits & Preachers
    * Sean Hannity: did not serve.
    * Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a
    'pilonidal cyst.')
    * Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
    * Michael Savage: did not serve.
    * George Will: did not serve.
    * Chris Matthews: did not serve.
    * Paul Gigot: did not serve.
    * Bill Bennett: did not serve.
    * Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
    * John Wayne: did not serve.
    * Bill Kristol: did not serve.
    * Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
    * Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
    * Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
    * Ralph Reed: did not serve.
    * Michael Medved: did not serve.
    * Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
    * Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at
    things that don't shoot back.)

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/18/3366.html?

    Of course Dragoon forgets to mention the thread
    and my explanations..me thinks he assumes to much. [​IMG] Janets bringing you your Pizza...Dragoon68;)

    [​IMG]
     
  8. carpro

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  9. Hardsheller

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    Here's the figures from the 2003 Congress

    Of the 150 men in Congress with military service to their credit, 87 are Republicans, and 63 are Democrats.
    We broke those down by service era and found that GOP and Democratic congressmen served at roughly similar rates in World War II and Vietnam. The GOP has far more Korean War veterans.
    Most interestingly, the Democrats have no members of Congress--zero--with military service in the post-Vietnam period. Have contemporary political Democrats completely opted out of military service?
    Dems drop the military

    WWII

    Rep 6
    Dem 6

    Vietnam

    Rep 44
    Dem 43

    Korea

    Rep 26
    Dem 14

    post-Vietnam

    Rep 9
    Dem 0
    Source: TAE research, 2003.
     
  10. carpro

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    Not just "interesting"...illuminating! [​IMG]
     
  11. Sonjeo

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    Politicans should never have to serve in the military but what we are seeing in Iraq must be the result of rulers never having experienced the gut check of real combat or having really faced death. Too many spoiled rich boy shinkickers serving money ahead of our people and willing to sacrifice those people, their toy soldiers, for the gain of money.
     
  12. carpro

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    Is this something you can document or merely your opinion? Got any names and examples?
     
  13. emeraldctyangel

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    There you are on to something. In the previous administration, someone floated some legislation about rules of engagement that would put US troops under the nearest foriegn command should we be separated from the central command. Many lawmakers glanced at the legislation and signed off on it and it was not until someone with some military experience read it and saw what a really bad idea that was. He patiently explained it to his boss, and it was killed immediately. (I would have to search through a couple boxes of books to get you the exacts.)

    The military does not make up our own rules. We follow rules deemed by the legislation set forth by the men and women we elect into Congress and the House. It would save many lives and enhance effectiveness if some of these elected officials had some idea what kind of impact they are making. Sometimes, that idea can only come with personal experience. Not always, as I have seen many members of Congress without military experience make wise choices (because they listen to people who know).

    When you talk about law makers having military experience - that is where it is most germaine. When you talk about people talking about war, it is mostly just a lot of hot air. And for the time being, when things are getting rough again in Afghanistan, and continued strife in Iraq, it would really be nice if we could just keep our eyes on the ball here, instead of throwing dirt under the guise of 'debate'.

    To the OP about chickenhawks, I have found very few people in the last 5 years that could fit that description.

    Most Americans that stand up and say thank you (there was a big group at the airport in Maine once) shake our hands with sincerity and say thank you, but they have a knowing look in their eye that I can only describe as "I know it was hard to do what you did. I am glad and sorry at the same time that it was you that had to do it. I am relieved to know there are men and women out there who willingly do the dirty work, so I can continue living my life as I wish."

    That does not a chickenhawk make.

    However, posting the same stuff over and over in (now) two different threads, does a discussion board flooder make. Please stop it A-pal. Mods please help.
     
  14. Sonjeo

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    Is this something you can document or merely your opinion? Got any names and examples? </font>[/QUOTE]It's my opinion on part of their weakness Names? Bush, and the PNAC cabinet members who have us in Iraq for military strategic position and oil. They thought sacrificing thousands of innocent Iraqi's and almost 2000 soldiers was worth it.
     
  15. emeraldctyangel

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    hmm I am beginning to think that the term 'chickenhawk' does not mean what we think it means...I believe it to be more appropriately defined as someone who is willing to talk long into the night about matters they have no experience in - on either side of the fence. How sad.
     
  16. Ps104_33

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    It was defined at the top. By Michael Moore:

    "A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person's youth."

    In other words its a hawk who is a chicken. Someone who has experienced the hell of war wouldnt be so quick to send someone elses children to fight in it. Someone who has never been in combat doesnt really realize what he is getting others involved in.

    Would General Eisenhower be considered a chicken hawk? He himself has never experienced combat has he? Yet he sent thoudsands of young men to a certain death at Normandy beach.
     
  17. emeraldctyangel

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    LOL when Michael Moore starts defining something important it should be something like calorie or carb counts. It is extremely unlikely he will ever be asked to do something in a 'war effort' so I suppose his creative definitions pretty much apply to himself. He is so willing to stand in front of people and tell everyone how they are all wrong for supporting troops in this war, yet he does virtually nothing to stop it.

    Effectiveness? -0- His mother must be so proud.

    Shoving aside the large sweaty offensive man shouting at the rain, WHO ON EARTH would ever be in their right mind AND be enthusiastic about war. What utter nonsense.

    General Eisenhower was most certainly around to see the ramifications of his hard pressed orders. Are you implying that he sat in a comfy thrown, eating grapes, while he waived away his advisors, shouting "send em all in!"?
     
  18. emeraldctyangel

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    Oh and I forgot, death is certain for everyone. Just not all at the same time. Some did walk away from the beaches of Normandy. Even if it was just one man - even that is considered a success.
     
  19. Dragoon68

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    You took the bait just like I figured you would, ASLANSPAL.
     

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