Children of the wicked one

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Aug 14, 2006.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    What do you make of these? Is it possible that the world consists of children of the wicked one, and children of the kingdom (fallen, but nevertheless children of God to begin with)? In other words, are the elect different than the rest of the world in some other way than the fact that the elect are chosen?


     
  2. J.D.

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    Npet, have you studied two-seedism?
     
  3. Marcia

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    Satan doesn't have any children! Spiritually speaking, if you don't serve God, you serve Satan, but you are not literally a child of the wicked one.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    On the money.

    Here's a brief overview of two seedism:

    Parker is Daniel Parker, born on April 6, 1781, in Culpeper County, Virginia. Absolute Predestinarian.
     
  5. J. Jump

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    Marcia hit it on the head in that we either serve God or we serve Satan. Unsaved folks serve only Satan, but once a person is saved then that person has a choice of Who/who to serve. We can either die to self and serve God or we can live for self and serve Satan.
     
  6. npetreley

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    I agree that if we don't serve God we are serving the wicked one. But that doesn't answer the question. It simply states something that is ALSO true.

    Jesus specifically states "children of the wicked one" and compares them to "children of the kingdom". The parable of the wheat and tares doesn't reflect what you said (it doesn't contradict it, it just doesn't reflect it). It reflects that there are two different kinds of children, and that they grow together in the world.

    No, I have not studied two-seedism, but I don't see how the idea that satan sowed bad seed leads to satan being an eternal being. I'm not defending it, I just don't see the connection between what I'm asking and the Wikipedia definition.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Neither do I, but apparently, those who opposed it at that time thought so.
    What I know about it (two seedism) is that it was a doctrine which came into existence as an excuse for God's sovereignty in election and predestination, to explain away why God chose some, and why all those God had chosen will without fail be saved, as if God needed to explain Himself away to anyone, even His own.

    Now, back to the parable.

    IMHO, it is speaking of the elect, and the unelect.
     
  8. npetreley

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    I think it is speaking of the elect and the unelect, too. What I was wondering, however, is if there is more to the difference between the elect and the unelect than meets the eye. This parable (and His explanation of it) implies that there is a difference. It doesn't say that the field was sowed with weeds, and God chose to make some of thoses weeds wheat. It says that two different types of plants were sowed.

    I really don't know anything about two-seedism, so I don't want to sound like I'm supporting it. But I have to add to the above verses this:

    Who (singular or plural, I don't know which it is in the Hebrew) is the serpent's seed?

    By the way, I see NO evidence whatsoever that the wicked one is literally the father of Cain (that he went in unto Eve and produced Cain). I'm not suggesting that, or even asking about that, since I think it's all but out of the question. I'm just curious as to who (again, singular or plural?) the serpent's seed may be?
     
  9. reformedbeliever

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    Very good question npet. I believe that we are of our father the devil until regeneration. I do not believe in eternal justification. I believe we have to hear the gospel and respond.... that we are not born again in eternity past. This is a very good question. I've always looked at it as if we are born of God and become His children.... but were we already His children? I still do not beleive in eternal justification.... but those who will be justified will certainly be so. Hmmmmm Grace and peace
     
  10. J.D.

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    In my first reading of the spiritual two seed theory, I found it generally acceptable. But I haven't really done a critical review of it yet. Likewise the doctrine of eternal justification.
     
  11. npetreley

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    I don't believe in eternal justification, either. I don't think the idea that there are children of the wicked one vs. children of God means there must be eternal justification, though.

    Here's another thing to think about. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. If everyone is "the lost" until they are saved, then why say "seek"? If everyone is the same, and everyone is in exactly the same condition, then we're all here, and we're all lost until we're found, right? That wouldn't call for seeking. Seeking implies that there are certain people to look for. Obviously, it refers to seeking the elect, but then maybe there's more to it than that. I guess that's what I'm wondering.
     
  12. Marcia

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    Don't you think when Jesus said this, he meant spiritually the children of the wicked one? I think that wheat and tares parable is telling us that the unsaved can look like the saved, but they are not.

    The enemy comes and sows tares. These are unbeleivers but they look like believers - tares are weeds that look like wheat, and according to this, only God is allowed to separate them. I think the tare can make itself known (as an apostate), but this normally does not happen.
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    I don't know if what I believe, reading the Scriptures and not being tutored by any man, is what you call eternal justification, and unless pursuing this will not tend to hijack your thread, then perhaps another thread on eternal justification will be proper.

    But I believe, reading the Scriptures and the implications of election when seen and compared with God's having written a book of Life where He wrote down all the names of His elect, that all the elect are born belonging to God by virtue of His choice of them, but, because of their fallen nature inherited from Adam, they are born at enmity with God here in time until regeneration, which of course is purely the act of the Spirit in them.

    That is why Jesus Christ always referred to them as His sheep, and in the Old Testament, as His brethren.

    I believe none of the elect born before the cross, before the blood of the Lamb was shed in time, regardless of their time of birth, or place of birth, will ever be lost, and all were covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.

    Now, before anyone starts bashing Primitive Baptists again, please note that I am not saying this is a doctrinal stand of Primitive Baptists, this is my understanding of the eternal security of the elect in Christ.
     
  14. npetreley

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    That's a plausible explanation. The question is, how do we know Jesus meant the tares were fake Christians? Is there something in the text that points to this, or is it just a possible interpretation?
     
  15. Marcia

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    Not necessarily "fake Christians" but counterfeit children of God (which we become by grace through faith in the OT and NT).

    In the immediate sense of when Jesus told this, the fact that tares look so much like wheat that it is apparently almost impossible to tell the difference would suggest, to me anyway, that it is not about a child of God vs. a Hindu, a Taoist, or a Buddhist, but more about a child of God vs. those who thought they were God's chosen as descendants of Abraham and therefore "safe." Many parables were on this topic, showing that the disbelieveing Jews were not in God's camp as they thought they were.

    In application for today, I think it is reasonable to say this may mean real believers vs. counterfeit believers - those who appear to be Christian or say they are, but really are not.

    Your question is making me think -- thanks.
     
  16. npetreley

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    Thanks, Marcia! Another thing that strikes me as interesting:

    Okay, I understand that sometimes you can say something like this with the hope that the listener will be convicted of his condition. But this is so unlike the way Jesus spoke to those He sought to save, it's almost as if their status is a given. They are of their father, the devil, and that's that.

    That's just the impression I get - it may mean absolutely nothing. It may be "tough love". It may simply mean Jesus knows the elect from the non-elect. But like I said, it gives me the impression that they're already set apart in a bad way. ;)

     
  17. Marcia

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    I think Jesus said this because they were rejecting Him as the Messiah. Of all people, the Jewish leaders should have recognized Him. They knew the scriptures, they knew the signs that would accompany the Messiah, yet they rejected him even though they saw him face to face. I think that is why Jesus said this. (I don't think it's tough love).
     
  18. Rex77

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    1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
     
  19. Soulman

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    Amen! The bible teaches we are condemned already if we haven't believed in Jesus. We are not born children of God. We are born sinners and cursed. We must be born spiritually(born again ) to become adopted children of God.

    By the way. These threads are infested with Calvinests'. Adam and Eve had a choice. Jesus is the second Adam. We have the same CHOICE Adam and Eve had. To come to God or not. I do not believe in two seeds. We are condemned prior to salvation because ALL have sinned.
     
  20. J.D.

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    Yeh, I've noticed that. There's Calvinests' ever where. They're like the boogy man, just waiten ta spring on ya and destroy yer faith - sayin that God is sovereign and all that stuff.
     

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