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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alive in Christ, May 14, 2011.
Apparently there is a 10 page limit, so here is VII if anyone wants to continue the discussians.
Here's a link back to the original Vol. 1 thread.
Wath the video here.
Calvinist God: “You may choose between (a) or (a), and you're free to choose whichever is most compatible and consistent with your nature, but you're not free to abstain from choosing, and the choice that you make, will ultimately be YOUR choice. So what's your choice?”
Person: “I guess I choose (a).”
C God: “Great. Now I will reveal the gracious gift or perhaps, just punishment for choosing (a).”
C God: “You made your choice! YOU chose it out of your own free agency!”
Person: “Wait! All I had was choice (a). What other choice COULD I make?”
C God: “What choice DID you make?
Person: “I chose (a).”
C God: “Exactly!”
Person: “But what choice did I HAVE?”
C God: “Apparently, the choice that you MADE.”
Person: “But it wasn’t MY choice.”
C God: “Sure it was.”
Person: “But I couldn’t choose anything OTHER THAN (a), so how was that MY choice?”
C God: “You admitted it yourself. You chose (a). You said so yourself.”
Person: “Ok, I chose it, but I didn’t have any OTHER choice.
C God: “Exactly! Finally you admit it.”
Person: “But my choice wasn’t REALLY a choice, since I had no OTHER choice.”
C God: “Would you like to know the ramifications of your choice?”
Person: “Not really.”
C God: “I chose to be gracious towards you.”
Person: “You did?”
C God: “I did.”
Person: “Wait! See, YOU’RE the One who did the choosing.”
C God: “I never said that I didn’t make a choice. I simply said that you had a choice, and YOU made your choice.”
Person: “Well, I guess it turned out ok, so I’m happy.”
C God: “Good. I’m glad that you’re happy.”
Person: “What about these others?”
C God: “I chose something different.”
Person: “Are they happy with THEIR choice?”
C God: “No.”
Person: “Well…they made their choice. They should just accept that.”
Calvinist God: “Exactly!”
*This can be found here. The above attributed to Richard Coords.
In the Vol.1 thread,
I believe it was EWF that said,
For me, and for the purpose of the the VOL.1 OP, it seems that the understanding of the word "choice" is the hinge that the door seems to keep swinging back and forth on. I'd like to re-post a question that to which I had not yet gotten an answer back from JBh28:
Basically, for choice to be real (and not imaginary or illogical) contrary options must be accessable. Could we just be having a friendly disagreement on what the word "choice" means?
One can choose to enter a door. It is a singular choice; no options.
In the case of regeneration it is God who first chose the individual by grace and faith. It is this grace that affords him to choose to enter in; a singular action.
TOTALLY AGREE! :thumbs:
Did you decide to be born?
Do flowers decide to bloom?
Does water decide to be wet?
Does fire decide to burn?
The Function & the order in life is because of "Gods Choice"
So what are you trying to say, that your different? that God can handle everything in this world BUT your salvation? Puny mortal.....try reading Job for a while
no options? there was the option of not entering, there could are many other accessible options and only one was chosen, which was to enter the door.
EWF, flowers, water and fire do not have real accessible options to bloom, be wet or burn. Therefore we would never to descibe them as having a choice (only when we might want to describe them in poetic or analogous fashion). I recognize that no man decides to be born.
Are you proposing that no human is ever different than flowers, water and fire in the sense that you have used above?
No Im telling you bluntly. You do not get a choice. Only God selects.
OK than in that case you dont even have that option. your salvation is Gods work, start to finish.
In order to be born again we must give up on our old life. The young rich ruler refused his calling because he didn't want to give up his old life.
According to the new birth by the choice of God we must trust in Jesus. There is no other options, turn to Him and He will open our eyes.
Our first birth was the choice of a man and a women and then God. If two people did not get together there will be no birth, unless you are Jesus, Adam, Eve, or Melchizedek who just did not have a record of it. If there is no messengers making a choice to go out, there is no being born again without the word of life.
So... you answered 'no', but it seems that you would agree that it is the case that "no human is ever different than flowers, water and fire" in that they do not have the capacity to choose nor do they have any real options.
Thank you for your reply. Are you saying that man does not have the option to trust in Jesus or not?
To trust in Jesus we do but God will hide the truth from some for the reason found in scripture
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
So, if the 'option' was hidden then, it wasn't really accessible, no?
1. (of a place) Able to be reached or entered.
to begin again
To be born again to start over. To listen and learn from Jesus. To not to lean on our own understanding but to trust in the Lord. This is the beginning of our new life.
Your either the pottery or your the potter.....which is it?
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
Calvinism simply redefines the word choice to agree with their doctrine. The only one with choice in Calvinism is God who chooses to elect you or pass you by.
If God has chosen you, you will be irresistably saved, you have no choice in the matter.
If God has chosen to pass you by and leave you in a state of total inability, it is impossible for you to trust Christ. They say you have choice, but in reality you don't. But saying you have choice numbs the offended conscience and sense of justice. It is like demanding that a blind man see, and then punishing him for his inability.
A blind man cannot choose to see, but a seeing man can choose to close his eyes and be blind. And that is what some do.
I never said you have choice. But here is another analogy since everyone is throwing them out. The fire chief with some of his firemen enters a burning building & stands there and yells "If anyone hears me yell out & my men will come by & save you." Of course he is totally ignoring the fact that these people are out cold & dieing of smoke inhalation.
It is the Calvinist belief that your unable to cry out to make a decision for Christ till your revived since your so sinful that you just cant make the decision. Once revived & pulled from the flames you realize who your saviors are.
Commentary from CHS:
Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!"
We can't just shout it out in hopes that someone will receive it. The word of life must be given to them personally. It does make us react, but not like men want it to. It places two roads to believe and be saved or not and continue down the road to destruction. God cannot be given to other in some box. It is given so they can come to Jesus the way He wants them to come to begin this walk by being humble trusting in Him and listen and learning from Him and for Him to show them the way.