Choice Or Grace?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Aug 26, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Is scaring the HELL out of people so they will go to HEAVEN our job?... Is the reason we go to HEAVEN or HELL a decision we make a choice we take?... Would anyone desire to go to HELL and suffer eternally when they can go to HEAVEN and live in eternal happiness? :confused: ... So what is it brothers and sisters a choice we make or is it GRACE?... It can't be both!... Was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ based upon our answer yea or nay to the sacrifice and did it not accomplish and embrace ALL those he died for?... GOD'S OPERATIONS OF GRACE BUT NO FREE OFFERS!... AMAZING GRACE HOW SWEET THE SOUND THAT SAVED A WRETCH LIKE ME!... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  2. Don

    Don
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    Not so much to scare people...but we do need to preach and remind people that there IS a hell.
     
  3. RaptureReady

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    and if they don't accept God's grace(His Son) then they will perish.
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    Why not? Why can't God in His Sovereignty decide to freely offer a gift (salvation) to all knowing that some will in fact choose to reject it?
     
  5. Gunther

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    Brother Glen, what exactly do you do with Romans 10:9-17?

    It seems Paul disagrees with your conclusion.
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I disagree with you... God does the calling and prepares the one he calls to answer... Romans 8:28-39... Question... Will God lose any that he choose in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world to save?... Will God cast away his people that he foreknew?... Is not the preaching of HELL to show us what we were delivered from not what we may be going to?... If HELL and HEAVEN are a choice or a decision is not the work of Christ in vain since he saved ALL the Father gave him and none else or does that make God unjust because he didn't give the whole race of mankind a chance?... If HEAVEN and HELL are by choice or decision then where does GRACE fit in?... Hath God cast away his people which he foreknew?... GOD FORBID!!!!!!!!!!... Brother Glen
     
  7. Doubting Thomas

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    Well, I disagree with you. Christ dying for the sins of the world is not in vain if God has determined that there is great value (indeed, agape) and glory in making atonement possible for the whole world, even for those that would spurn it.
     
  8. Trotter

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    It is a choice, and it is grace. They are not mutually exclusive.

    The Holy Spirit does the calling and the saving, we are to do the witnessing and the preaching.

    Look at it this way...God has all knowledge, and the past, present, and future are the same to Him. Nothing that happens surprises God, because He already knows. God already knew who would, and would not, accept His offer of forgiveness and redemption. But the catch is that God plays His cards close to His vest...He doesn't tell us who will or won't be saved. We are to witness and preach to each and every person in hopes of reaching one who will choose to accept.

    When a person chooses to accept Jesus Christ, it is the Holy Spirit at work, not our preaching "hellfire so hot you could feel it". Any conversion under those circumstances is open for question. But I have seen people saved when hell was preached, when grace was preached, when creation was preached, when the fall of Jerico was preached. The message wasn't what drew them and saved them. It was just a vehicle that God used to let the Spirit do His work in their hearts.

    So, it is a choice, it is grace, it is predestination, it is free will. It is the work of God, and I stand in awe.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  9. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    If it is a choice or a decision... It is not Grace!... If it is free will it is not Grace... Predestination is Grace!... The work of God is Grace... Grace unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject!... Anything you had to do to get it nullifies GRACE!... GRACE IS A GIFT!... ETERNAL LIFE IS A GIFT!... From God and if you spurn it does it nullify the gift given?... It's is still yours even though you feel you must perform some act to get it!... I DON'T!... THAT IS GRACE!... Question... According to Romans 9:1-5... Why would the Apostle Paul since he was also saved by the Grace of God want himself accursed for his kinsmen seeing they were already in the promises of God according to verse four?... Brother Glen
     
  10. John Wells

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    Preach it Bro. Glen! [​IMG]

    A good example (maybe that's why he dwells on grace so much) is Paul himself; on his way to Damascus to imprison, beat, possibly even kill as many Christians as he can find, when he is surrounded, subdued, and overcome by God's prevenient, irresistable grace as administered by The Christ Himself! Paul could no more outrun God's calling than a man stranded on a South Pacific atol can escape a tidal wave. When God comes after someone, there's no where to run or hide. I am living proof! ;)
     
  11. gb93433

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    The thought of God's eternal judgement ought to get anyone's attention. But also the infinite magnitude of God's love ought to also grab our attention.
     
  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Those who embrace and understand grace know that the only reason they are embraced in God's love is because Jesus Christ took the judgement due those God gave him to save!... He stood in our room and stead to save us from HELL where we were bound... The sacrifice of the Lamb Of God delivered his grace wrought blood bought children from the pit of HELL!... THAT IS GRACE!... AMAZING GRACE! [​IMG] ... And none of his sheep will ever be lost... NEVER!!!!!!!!!!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  13. npetreley

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    C'mon Glen, you should know better.

    Ephesians 2:8-9 (FWV) "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that faith is of yourselves of your own free will; not the gift of God, lest anyone should be denied the ability to boast."

    (FWV = Free Will Version) ;)
     
  14. Artimaeus

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    I don't understand this confusion. :confused: If the offer isn't genuine (choice) and it isn't of grace (undeserved by me) then Christianity is just one big colossal joke and I would have nothing to do with it.
     
  15. Bartimaeus

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    I did not read all the posts so if this is a duplicate please forgive.
    "Therefor knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."
    Thanks ------Bart

    P.S. Col 1 "Whom we preach warning every man...."
     
  16. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Where in the scriptures chapter and verse does it show that the grace of God is dependent upon the sinner to receive it?... Ephesians 2:8-13... Let's look at verse eight and nine... Now if any one can get free will or choice that is dependent upon the sinner out of these two scriptures I will eat my Bible page by page... By grace are ye saved through faith; and that Not Of Yourselves... IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD!... Not Of Works, Lest ANY MAN should boast... That is plain language and couldn't be any plainer!... Grace is not choice nor is choice or decision the vehicle used to operate grace!... Grace is the operation of God on one DEAD in trespasses and in sin with no way out except by GRACE!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    Good word, Trotter. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. er1001

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    :( I wonder why this discussion seems to be endless where ever you go?????
    why did Jesus ask us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature ?
    Why did the apostle Paul make all those missionary journeys preaching and teaching and persuading men to REPENT and be SAVED ??????????
    A friend of mine was working at a summer camp in PEI,Can a few years back and he noticed that a girl would cry almost uncontrollably at the bond fire every night when salvation was offered.He asked whats her problem and was told she was told by her family and church she was not one of the elect.He said elect or not she got saved that night.
    If the gospel is not for the WHOLE world why were we given the great commission ??????
    Good day fr NB ER
     
  19. npetreley

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    Here's the best way I know how to answer the objections with respect to preaching, the great commission, etc. If it works for you, great, if not, that's okay, too.

    First, let's assume the position of election is true. Let's assume that man cannot possibly of his own free will change his self-centered and sinful inclination and therefore would never want to repent and put his faith in Jesus. The fact that man cannot, of his own free will, change his inclination is effectively saying the same as he cannot choose to put his faith in Jesus. It is impossible, because man will not choose something he is inclined NOT to choose. God must first change his heart, after which it is impossible for him not to want to choose to put his faith in Jesus.

    To repeat, let's assume ALL of the above is true.

    Now -- is the following not ALSO true?

    1. People are sinners and should repent.
    2. If you don't repent you will not be saved.
    3. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
    4. Whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
    5. If you don't believe, you are going to perish.

    So when people preach these things, why are they any less true if God has elected to make the message effective unto salvation for only SOME of those who hear it? Aren't all the above statements true for all, regardless? Yet why should one marvel at the fact that only those who God has appointed to eternal life are moved by the message?

    Acts 13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

    ------------

    On a more personal note...

    I notice that Acts 13:49 does NOT say "But since some did not believe, the apostles stayed there several years and preached and preached, warning them over and over again of the dangers of hell in order to win their stubborn souls for Christ."

    I have nothing against dogged persistence in preaching, in the hopes that those who vehemently reject Christ will repent. I believe that if the Spirit moves someone to do that, there must be a good reason for it.

    But I would point out two things:

    1. The language of Acts 13:48 sounds very matter-of-fact, at least to me. The most comfortable follow-up would almost be, "And those who were not appointed for eternal life didn't believe. And that's the name of that tune."

    2. Is it not ironic that this "dogged persistence" is an effort to change the hearts (the inclination) of those to whom one preaches? We're not giving them a choice to make of their own free will. We're desperately trying to persuade them -- to change their inclinations so that they will change the desires of their heart and WANT to make the RIGHT choice.

    So if we (the editorial we) believe we should spend the time and effort to change the hearts of listeners, why do we object to the idea that God must first change our hearts (our inclination) before it is possible for us to believe in Jesus?

    That leads to the next question. If we believe we have been successful in persuading someone -- successfull in changing his/her heart or inclination -- to whom do we REALLY assign the credit for that change? I'm not asking who you verbalize as deserving the credit, but to whom you REALLY assign most of the credit. After all, if "salvation by free will choice" is true, and God does not have to change the inclination of the heart, then YOU (the editorial you) did most of the hard work in convincing that person to change his/her heart.

    That's why I believe "salvation by free will choice" is all about man's pride, not about God, and I believe it is pride both from the perspective of the person who believes he is saved by choice, and the person who preaches to those he wants to be saved by choice.
     
  20. bjonson

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    AMEN! Salvation is all of God.

    "So then it is neither him that runs or he that wills, but God..."

    Romans 9:16
     

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