Christ is superior to Moses...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Jan 1, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    In Hebrews 3, we read that Christ is superior to Moses. Also in Hebrews, we read that Christ is superior to Aaron.

    Now, Aaron represented the priesthood. Christ isn't after the old priesthood, he is after a different priesthood, one that is eternal.

    Aaron's priesthood has its authority from the Mosaic Law.

    Now, Moses represented the prophet position. Christ is greater than Moses. This would mean that the revelation that came from Christ was superior to that of Moses.

    This would mean that Christ's law is superior to that of Moses.

    Covenant theologs maintain that Christ only kept Moses' law, but he didn't bring in his own law. This makes the whole comparison moot and meaningless.

    Hebrews is replete with statements about Christ being superior than...

    It even says that it is a better covenant built upon better promises. Yet Covenant theologs ignore this by saying it is just a different administration.

    Christ is not a steward of Moses, he is the new law giver. Just as he is better than Aaron and his priesthood, he is better than Moses and his role as prophet.
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    The only thing I would point out here is that if the message of Moses is considered the Word of God (Which, last time I checked, it was), then it is also the message of Jesus, who is God. Therefore, I would say that your logic is pitting the authority of God against himself. It is not the word of Moses against the Word of Christ. It is all God inspired and therefore, you are pitting the Word of God against another part of the Word of God. I think this is wrong.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Daniel David

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    Joseph, that is how it might have come across, but that isn't how I meant it.

    The Mosaic law was BY NATURE temporary. That is why the author of Hebrews said that it was necessary for another covenant to come.

    The Mosaic law is the word of God. However, its binding effect/affect upon believers ended when Christ died and the veil was ripped down the middle.

    Major difference:

    Old covenant - for one nation made up of unbelievers and believers

    New covenant - for all believers everywhere since it was cut (on the cross).
     
  4. Tim

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    The New Covenant initiated the radical changes which ultimately came to define the Christian faith.
    Though the OT believers had a true faith, it was incomplete.

    Luke 10:22-24 Turning to the disciples, he said, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is, except the Father, and who the Father is, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son desires to reveal him." Turning to the disciples, he said privately, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that you see, for I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see the things which you see, and didn't see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and didn't hear them."

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  5. wopik

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    Daniel David --

    Old covenant - for one nation made up of unbelievers and believers

    New covenant - for all believers everywhere since it was cut (on the cross)


    The new covenant IS the old covenant written in our hearts, instead of on stone / written internally instead of externally.

    There was nothing wrong with the old covenant. The fault was "with them" (Hebrews 8:8).

    The covenant that HE made with them when HE lead them out of the land of Egypt was the Ten Commandments (Dt.4:13, 9:11, Ex. 34:28)

    [ January 01, 2004, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Wopik, Christ's covenant is not the same as the one made with Moses.

    Jeremiah 31:31
    31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

    32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt

    Pay attention to verse 32.

    Different covenant for a different people.
     
  7. Precepts

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    Maybe the "theolog" should consider the difference between "disannul" and "fulfill" in regards to the "question".

    Not one jot or even a tittle of the Law of Moses is "disannulled". "Fulfilled" , yes!

    Jesus fulfilled the Law/satisfied it! And thereby instituted a "better way"/ The New Covenant.

    Obedience to the Law combined with faith in the Coming Messiah got the O.T. saints into "Paradise" under the Mosaic Law, but hell hath enlarged herself and Paradise is now empty due to the Offering of Christ's Blood that established the New Covenant; thereby the inhabitants of Paradise then had to receive Christ as their Highpriest/Saviour, just as we do today.

    Christ didn't over-ride the Law of Moses, He "kept" the whole Law.
     
  8. Daniel David

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    Quickening spirit, I am going to have to ask that you stay on topic.

    That last paragraph demonstrated (again) that it is the Covenant theologs that have made two plans of salvation. Note that according to you, one had to keep the law and have faith. Nice work.

    Romans 4 says that David was justified the same way Abraham was.

    Christ fulfilled the law making it OBSOLETE. Call it whatever you want to make you feel better, but I am not bound to obey ANY of Moses' Law (Romans 10:4).
     
  9. Precepts

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    (Better check your Ten Commandments again, and then I would have to ask you are you striving to live in accordance with the Moral aspects, or not? Be careful with that one that deals with bearing false witness, I'm afraid many fail to see the implications of being wrong about the Mosaic Law. Note: I am NOT SDA)

    Maybe your hobby horse has a loose shoe. There is only ONE way of salvation: Jew and Gentile alike. Reference Ephesians 2:14 in ALL aspects; literal and spiritual.

    If one will consider context in stead of pulling a verse or two out to establish meaning, they will find the entire Bible in full harmony.
    The ONLY way anyone other than Jesus could possibly obey the whole Law of Moses is through Jesus Christ and Him alone.

    Many well meaning individuals have consistantly beat their ever-loving heads against the wall on this subject, constantly failing to place themselves within the harmony of Scripture.

    Of course the all too common discussion of "works" salvation is soon to ensue, but let it be known Salvation is of the Lord and in truth, there is only a "Work" salvation, that is Jesus performed the Work His Father sent Him to do: to be the Propitiation for man's sin as the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world, including David and Abraham.(and Mary,btw)

    (I'll learn to reply with the quote to ascertain an "in-line" objective) [​IMG]

    [ January 02, 2004, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: QuickeningSpirit ]
     
  10. Daniel David

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    The division of the law into its three categories (moral, civil, and ceremonial) is artificial and the product of a theological system, not Scripture.

    The Scriptures do not divide the law, only those who see the law in aiding sanctification do that.

    The 10 commandments are not God's 'moral' law. It is the embodiment of the Mosaic law. If they were the 'moral' law, why are we no longer REQUIRED to observe the sabbath law?
     
  11. Precepts

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    If my Bible serves me right, Jesus Christ is the answer. He did meet with the disciples on the first day of the week: I am one of His disciples, not to be confused with the "12".

    Oh,btw, Jesus did fulfill the entire area of the portion referred to as the "Ceremonial Law" as High Priest. Also He fulfilled the entirity of the Law as being without sin, unless of course you're part of that apostate bunch who thinks Jesus was tempted and thus able to sin.

    Be careful not to mix Law with Grace, unless you're counting your ability to keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, then becoming guilty of all.

    Also,btw, there is nothing artificial about the "divisions", of the Law. Christ initiated the New Covenant in His own blood, but never was morality thrown to the four winds and cast away so that grace abounds where one voluntarily continues in sin, "God forbid".

    The Law of God is never to be "evil spoken of", but isn't that what lawlessness does? Bearing a false witness is a sense of lawlessness; it professes something, but yet when observed,it is rooted in deceptive practice. (hypocrite is what the Lord referred to it as).

    The Law is our "schoolmaster" to bring us to Christ. Now I am saved, but I haven't yet acheived sinless perfection. I have liberty in Christ to come before the Throne of Grace in a continual repentence of realized sin, but not a "license" to keep sinning. The Law "keeps" me returning to "school", not for salvation of the soul, but saving from daily sin. Consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners, (which we still are in this uneradicated flesh), despising the shame.
     
  12. Tim

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    This popular idea that the OT Law still acts as a schoolmaster to bring all men (Jews and gentiles) to salvation in Christ is simply not an accurate representation of what Paul was saying in Galatians. Reread Galatians 3 and 4 again.

    First major problem, Paul uses the past tense "was" in reference to that role for the Law. Also, when the verse says " bring us unto Christ", Paul is speaking historically--of the Jews awaiting the Messiah. He is not referring to an individual's conversion experience today. The context makes that clear.

    Paul's point is that the OT Law served it's purpose for a time, until "that faith is come" i.e. Christianity (v.25).Paul continues--Now "we" i.e. the Jews are no longer under a schoolmaster (O.T. Law).

    Under the terms of the New Covenant, all men, Jews or gentiles, become children through faith in Jesus Christ--apart from the works of the OT Law.

    Unfortunately, Covenant theologians have popularized a complete misunderstanding of this passage--in essence turning it on it's head.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  13. Precepts

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    Paul "was speaking" is indicative of relevence to today. He also spoke of the "law that worketh" in my members. He also said that without "The Law" still there was sin.

    One must also regard the fact that Christ died, was buried and rose on the third day "according" to the Scriptures. When we speak of sin it is always in regard to God's Law and the breaking of that Law.

    I fully understand the implications of the Law due to my experience as being guilty of breaking the Law of God. Without knowing which law I had broken, I am confused and God is NOT the author of confusion, so thereby the Law IS the schoolmaster to bring me to the need for Christ as my Saviour, but once I have come to Christ, repenting in godly sorrow for His death due to my sin, trusting in His "Final Atonement" for all creation, the condition of my soul is never in the past state indicated by the verb "was". Paul expressly spoke as of the "schoolmaster" in the past tense of the verb to the Church of Galatia being to believers, not to lost people. Paul was having to constantly and consistantly deal with those who would "Judaize" the Church.

    It is written,"Without faith, it is impossible to please God", but what sense is faith until revelation of Christ and why he died for our sins?

    One of the biggest mistakes in this "Christian" life is failing to realize who is the enemy. The Jews looked, some still looking, for the Messiah to come and destroy their enemies, they just fail to see themselves as sinners, in need of saving from their sin, and until anyone is taught about the Law, the result of breaking that Law, they have no real hope.

    Jesus is our "Consolation", He is our Hope. For you Greek scholars that word "hope" means confidence, but the meaning of our hope as being real confidence is establish ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ "fulfilling" the requirements of the Law.

    Now hope that is seen is not hope, for what do we yet hope for? Christ is the Eternal Hope of Glory!

    If that would get ahold of you just right, somebody might find you about halfway down the street shouting your "goozle" out!

    You MUST rightly divide the Word of Truth or else you risk the chance of false doctrine. [​IMG]
     
  14. Daniel David

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    QS, you are confusing God's law with the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law 'was' God's law until the Christ came and did away with it.

    Both theologically and historically, we are "not under law, but under grace".

    That does not produce lawlessness, for grace reigns in righteousness.

    The Mosaic law is powerless to aid justification OR sanctification. Any teaching otherwise is counter to God's revelation.
     
  15. Precepts

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    DD, I agree fully with your last statement, BUT, under the Mosaic Law a man committed the physical act of adultry and was worthy of stoning, under grace, all he has to do is think about it and it's just as bad, but we have grace, not to continue in sin, but to have forgiveness.

    I believe the reason for things being that way is to drive to the point of pleading for more grace, that is , to pass from grace to grace.

    I'm not mixing law and grace, but you cannot have one without the other.

    Maybe we're having a communication breakdown.

    Obedience is still better than sacrifice, but the Lord stilll expects us to sacriofice, though not under the commandment for atonement, bnut our bodies are to be a "living sacrifice" as commanded in Romans 12:1,2.

    So chronologically, Romans 12 is well after Romans 5,6,7,8 which deal with our position under grace, yet we are still commanded to keep and do those things which do not bring reproach and in the same instance give glory to God. But just in case we do sin, as we in our natural bodies do, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ.

    Grace gives us the liberty to come right back to the Throne of Mercy through the Blood of Jesus, but under the Law we would be forever lost again. That is exactly why you can't mix the two, but one most certainly can "advance" to the next, that is , be under grace.

    Yes, we have liberty to worship God in our sinful state, but only due to grace. the Law though still condemning us, mercy answers for us.

    Let me also say to those who feel they can sin all they want to and still be saved, YOU'RE DECEIVED! IOW, you're not saved if you feel that way about sin, and you'd be guilty of crucifying the Son afresh, wilfully sinning and there remaineth no sacrifice for sin in that circumstance, that is, not until true repentence for sin has taken place.

    A person who believes they can sinn all they want to have never come to the place of godly sorrow, they may have experienced worldly sorrow, but that worketh death.

    II Corinthians 7: 5-12 (Look it up in the Bible)
     
  16. Aaron

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    The Perpetuity of the Law by C.H. Spurgeon.

    I don't know anything about "the-highway.com" but spurgeon.org doesn't have this sermon uploaded yet.
     
  17. Tim

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    Aaron,

    I read some of the Spurgeon sermon you cited, and I have read many of his sermons before. As great a preacher as he was, he was definitely influenced by Covenant Theology. He admired the Westminster Confession, even though he was a Baptist. Today, we might consider him a Reformed Baptist--holding to something like the 1689 London Confession). I am very familiar with Reformed Baptists--they are always citing Spurgeon as well as the great Puritan writers.

    Thus Spugeon is simply towing the C.T. line on the subject of the OT Law. New Covenant theology would never submit that Christ made the Law easier to obey (a straw man that Spurgeon uses)--we would say the exact opposite. Christ elevated moral standards in the Sermon on the Mount. Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law, replacing it with a greater law--the law of Christ. Therefore NCT is not antinomian at all (a constant charge of C.T.s--including Spurgeon). We simply recognize a greater law than the Law of Moses. (Heb.3:1-6.

    Even the prince of preachers was fallible.

    A believer in the better covenant,

    Tim
     
  18. Precepts

    Precepts
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    Law of Christ?

    Somebody might say this would be a different subject but it's completely relevant to the discussion.

    Galatians 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
    2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
    3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
    4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
    5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
    6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
    7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

    Now if a man doesn't have any inclination to obey the law of God, then why is it he needs to be restored by the brethren, and what is the fault, and then why is there a fault if the "Law" id done away?

    It's not the Law of God is nullified, but the penalty for breaking the Law, which is death, is removed through the grace of God.

    Hey, I'm a sinner, you're a sinner. We both have a burden to bear, that is to do unto others as we would have them do unto us, but when we do mess up, we are to restore each other in the spirit of meekness. Simply stated, if you're not going to fulfill this command, then you place yourself up as the target.

    "So fulfill the law of Christ",Hmm? Seems the law was never done away with, but the requirements of the execution of the law have been overidden by the means of God's grace.

    This ideal of the Law of God being nullified by grace is a dispensational error. This is why Christians stand idly by and watch unconverted heathens tell us the meaning of separation of church and state, telling us we, the people, can't have the Ten Commandments on "OUR" courthouse lawns!

    I pay taxes so I can tell the governm,ent what to do, not give them a paycheck and let them steal my heritage, my inaliable rights, and OUR public proprety away from us by the means of "political correctness", or I suppose grace has allowed that to come about as well?

    BAH!!
     
  19. Daniel David

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    QS, it appears as though you are either not paying attention, or just don't have a clue what this discussion is even about.

    Can anyone demonstrate where I have advocated lawlessness?

    Did I not say that "grace reigns in righteousness"?

    The Mosaic law is the Old Covenant.

    The New covenant is that which was prophesied by Ezekiel, Isaiah, and Jeremiah. It was cut when Christ died.

    The New Covenant is superior to the old. We are not bound to live by the Old Covenant anymore, as it doesn't even exist in God's eyes anymore.
     
  20. Precepts

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    Arguementative spirit detected.

    James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
    19 ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
    20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

    Your words seem to fit in the receiving end of the admonition stated above.

    Open a discussion, but then remain biased attempting to delegate to the ones involved in the discussion? That is limting the "multitude of counsellors" and designating thyself as a "know-it-all". How sad. :rolleyes: :(
     

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