CHRIST: Sinless or not?

**Insult removed**That verse does not say Jesus was drinking an alcoholic beverage.

You said several verses and you provide only one that doesn't prove what you think it does.

Where are the others?

 

Here is another passage from Leighton G. Campbell's book 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' that proves beyond the shadow of doubt that Jesus could not have and did not drink alcoholic wine:

Your using the corresponding verse in Matthew has been shown to be false accusations toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Here is a link that explains wine and how it was used in Bible times.

http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/alcohol_3.htm

 

Classic circular reasoning...we know they didn't drink...and because they didn't drink, we can be sure that they didn't drink.

Sorry, pal, you and Leighton are having to torture some Greek to get to your conclusions.

But to each his own...

Rbell <------a tee-totaller (let the attacks begin)

 

Please note that "His Blood Spoke My Name" must use a book OUTSIDE the Bible to "prove" his alleged point. Mr. Leighton Campbell's OPINIONS and INTERPRETATIONS are his own.

Christ was seen eating and drinking WINE, and was falsely accused of being gluttonous and a drunkard.

It is TRUE that He was NOT gluttonous or drunk, but it is also TRUE He WAS drinking wine.

So yours and Campbell's arguments fail, both logically and biblically.

Also, anybody even a little familiar with the Bible knows that Christ's Last Supper was the Passover meal. Jews have historically ALWAYS drunk ALCOHOLIC WINE with their Passover meal---NOT "grape juice", as certain naive Christians would like everybody to believe.

Christ partook of the Passover meal, and I must say that I've never seen anything in the Bible that says "Oh, it was just grape juice!"

So it is quite obvious that Christ and the Disciples drank WINE at the Last Supper, NOT "grape juice".

The bottom line is that naive teetotalers will believe what they wish, regardless of the facts. Christ and several of the Apostles drank WINE frequently with their meals, not "grape juice". It is astounding the lengths and logical leaps teetotalers will go to, in order to deny the obvious--Jesus and most of the Disciples drank WINE in moderation with their meals.

 

Amy, that link you provide is not a good source for proving wines in the Bible were always alcoholic.

I have a copy of one of the books that that site supposedly quotes sitting in front of me, in which they say Pliny said the wine was mixed with water to weaken it.

While there are 8 instances where Pliny is mentioned in the book, he is not mentioned on the page they claim, nor does he speak about water mixed with wine in the pages he is on.

A church has to lie to justify alcohol?

 

Using the Bible, Christ did not say He was drinking wine... and the Greek will show that. Using Campbell's book or not!

 

I've noticed the "liar" label being thrown out waaaay too much lately. You don't know...they may be lying. But (more likely) they didn't document the right quote. It could very well be a typo from a compiled source.

But....I'm sure you'll stick with the "liar" label.

 

How do you know that the intent of their article is to "justify" alcohol? Please identify precisely which statements in their article are lies.

Be careful that you do not bear false witness, since that is considered a greater sin in the Bible than the moderate consumption of wine.

Gee, I just can't remember seeing anything about wine in the Ten Commandments. But I do recall seeing something about bearing false witness.

By the way, I do NOT drink wine or any other alcoholic beverages.

 

I am not sure what Bible you are reading, but not only are you accusing my Lord falsely of drinking wine when the Pharisees accused Him, but you also falsely accuse Him in say He drank wine at the Last Supper. Here is the account:

Jesus never drank of the cup there at that table. He said He would not drink of it!

 

Or the quotation might be from a different edition/printing of the same book, which would logically explain why the page numbers don't match. The "liar" label is premature and unjustified at this point in time.

 

Since I have the book in front of me and what they say is in the book is not there, it is a lie. It is not truth they have posted on that page.

 

Page numbers with Pliny on it say nothing at all about wine mixed with water. As a matter of fact, the word water is not mentioned on those pages at all.

You are really grasping, aren't you?

 

Fine. They're liars now.

2 pages from now they'll be blasphemers.

4 pages from now they'll be unsaved.

5 pages from now this thread will close, and someone will open another Wine-o-rama (or Welch-o-rama, depending on your viewpoint).

Bye.:wavey:

 

Wow. Peter must have been dumb as a rock, then, to think that they actually supposed they were drunk! "For these men are not drunken, as ye suppose..."

I wish someone would've saved him the embarrassment by saying, "Hey, Peter, they're just picking on you. They don't really think you're drunk!"

Michael

 

Notes from a sermon on "The Bible and Beverage Alcohol, Part 1" done by Pastor Marc Monte on August 10, 2005:

II. The Hebrew Terms for Wine and Their Uses

A. The Hebrew words translated “wine” in the Bible do not always mean fermented or intoxicating wine.

B. The Hebrew word yayin, most often translated “wine” in the Old Testament, means grape juice in any form—fermented or unfermented. The true meaning can only be determined by the context. Yayin is a general term referring to any beverage—sweet or sour, fermented or fresh—derived from grapes.

C. The Hebrew word tirosh, also translated “wine,” in all but one possible case means “new wine,” “unfermented wine.” This word was used repeatedly in the original text in the places where wine has a good textual connotation. Example: Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh—unfermented grape juice](Gen. 27:28). Note the association of fresh corn at harvest with fresh, unfermented grape juice at harvest.

D. Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

E. Having carefully examined the context of the uses of yayin in the Old Testament, Dr. Robert P. Teachout has concluded that this word is intended to mean grape juice 71 times and fermented wine 70 times.

F. How can the English reader determine whether the Old Testament is speaking of unfermented, good wine, or fermented, bad wine? Simply examine the context of the verse. Wherever the use of wine is prohibited or discouraged, the reference is to fermented wine. Where its use is encouraged, the reference is to unfermented grape juice.

G. Any argument for the use of beverage alcohol must blur the distinction in Old Testament usage of the word “wine.” In addition, such arguments must “explain away” the Bible’s clear condemnation of intoxicating beverages.

Part 1 and Part II of this sermon are found here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...y=true&keywordwithin=Beverage+Alcohol&x=0&y=0

 

Those that were mocking were accusing the men of being drunk. They knew the Apostles followed the Lord and did not drink alcoholic wine at all. When they saw the men speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, they were mocking because they thought that the Apostles wine had indeed been proven to be an alcoholic wine. It was not. And Peter affirmed this.

 

And they were accused of being drunk on what again? Oh, yeah, new wine. Isn't that supposed to be the "God-approved-ancient-Welch's"?

 

You're the one grasping. Not to mention you bore false witness against the church whose article was linked to earlier, by accusing them of trying to "justify" alcohol use, which they were clearly NOT trying to do.

Breaking one of the Ten Commandments is NOT "standing firm in Christ". Nor is perpetuating the lie that what Christ and the disciples were "really" drinking is "grape juice".

 

Apparently you did not read my last post, did you? They were accused falsely. The accusers were saying, the wine you drink has made you drunk. It had not. It could not have made them drunk, because it was not alcoholic.