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Christ was Arminian?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ were very much in line with the Arminian view of the "good news" of the Gospel that He taught.

    John 1 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" (instead of limited atonement, instead of irresistable grace).

    Matt 18 -- "SO shall my heavenly Father do to EACH OF YOU if you do not EACH one forgive your brother from the heart" Matt 18 "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" - instead of "OSAS".

    "That WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should have everlasting life" instead of "limited selection".

    "I will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32(instead of limited atonement).

    Luke 8 "Rocky Ground and Thorny Ground" where the DEAD spring to LIFE and then die back again. ( Instead of losing free will after you become saved )


    And of course it is no wonder that the Arminian view is so much in harmony with the teachings of Christ - these principles are in scripture itself.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    It really grieves me that all of you are so eager to attach the names Arminius and Calvin to Jesus, the Christ.

    Truth dictates that Jesus was neither Arminian nor Calvinist. Besides the Scriptures already list several hundred names that unqualifyingly apply to Jesus. They are sufficient!

    Seems to me that Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ predates both Calvin and Arminius by at least a millenium and a half, so please stop this foolishness!
     
    #2 Yelsew, Apr 12, 2003
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Arminian - just a convenient way to package "Free will and unlimitted atonement".

    Not intended to mean "Christ studied the works of Joseph Arminius".

    Granted.

    Hopefully "packaging the idea" with the term "Arminian" won't prove too distracting for you.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    It's merely a futile exercise in one-upsmanship, and you cannot improve on the scriptural names for Jesus.

    For Example: Emmanuel, God with us.

    How on earth can Calvin or Arminius compare!

    The Calvinists accuse me of placing man above God, when in reality is is those who align with those names who are assigning extraordinary power in those names.
     
    #4 Yelsew, Apr 12, 2003
  5. Harald

    Harald New Member

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    #5 Harald, Apr 12, 2003
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    If you really think there's a connection here, please put it into some words we morons can understand.

    My heavenly Father will do what? Deliver us up to torturers until we pay all that is due Him? So what you're saying is that Matthew 18 teaches purgatory? Here's the context.

    34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

    For the gazillionth time, this verse describes calvinism perfectly. Whosoever believes will certainly have eternal life. The question is not who believes or whether they believe, but how they come to believe.

    Mistranslation or poor translation (depending on the translation). The word "all" is there. The word "men" is not. The NKJV interprets it to mean peoples (nations): 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." But it is literally "I will draw all to Myself."

    The parable of the weeds in Matthew 13: The wheat are the sons of the kingdom, the weeds are sons of the evil one. Does the parable ever even suggest that weeds can choose to be wheat of their own free will? If not, why not? Why can't weeds be among the "whosoever believe" and magically turn into wheat? Let's ask Jesus:

    Actually, with only a few exceptions, it amazes me that anyone can see arminianism in scripture at all.
     
    #6 npetreley, Apr 12, 2003
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When you are through obfuscating on this side trail - I don't suppose there is a chance of getting you to address the point is there?

    Nobody is calling Christ - "Arminius" nor saying that "he read the works of Arminius" - rather the "free will" and "unlimited atonement" concepts are the focus of the texts.

    Care to address them? yet?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    John 1 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" (instead of limited atonement, instead of irresistable grace).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Gladly - God sovereignly CHOOSES who will be "HIS OWN" - that is not the choice of man - but of God.


    God sovereignly WORKS for "HIS OWN" in this case "HE COMES TO HIS OWN" -- again showing that NOT only is God CHOOSING them - He is actively WORKING in their behalf SENDING His Son TO them.

    The problem is NOT "God did not CHOOSE" or that God only "cared" to send the Savior to ANOTHER set of "selected elected" - INSTEAD we see those TO WHOM God sends the Savior - rejecting Him.

    Clearly a "free will model" INSTEAD of a "not selected" model.

    "He CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT".

    I realize that this may still appear to be "cryptic" for some - so please feel free to inquire about exactly what this means.

    LIMITED atonement on the other hand declares that SINCE God chooses the "FEW of Matt 7" as "HIS OWN" then only THEY are the ones that He ATONES for and so of course THEY will ALL receive Him just as He sovereignly ordains. In that model all who "DO NOT RECEIVE Him" are the ones who are "NOT selected" "NOT chosen" "NOT HIS OWN" and for whom HE DOES NOT send the Savior. ("Remedial Calvinism 101". First day of class)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    Matt 18 -- "SO shall my heavenly Father do to EACH OF YOU if you do not EACH one forgive your brother from the heart" Matt 18 "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" - instead of "OSAS".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nope - lake of fire. Luke 12:32 "He who KNEW His master's will and did it not will receive MANY lashes". Judgment and suffering "According to their deeds" Rev 20.

    However "if you prefer to think of this as Purgatory" -- if that fits Calvinism better - feel free.


    Here's the context.

    The slave OWED a huge debt and was FORGIVEN.

    The argument is made that SINCE he was FORGIVEN he should ALSO forgive OTHERS in the same way that he was FORGIVEN.

    If the slave was "not really forgiven his debt" then in fact he WAS already "forgiving others" the same way he was forgiven and the illustration of Christ is fully corrupted by calvinism's defense.

    But in this FORGIVENESS REVOKED scenario - Christ NOT ONLY shows this applying to the unfaithful servant BUT then applies it DIRECTLY to the Followers of Christ JUST as He does in the Lord's prayer.


    34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    "That WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should have everlasting life" instead of "limited selection".
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    For the gazillion and 1 time - Calvinism states "IT is not YOU who WILLs it is NOT whosoever WILLs - but it is God who WILLS. MAN is DEAD in SIN - incapable of doing anything. God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER HE WILLED to select-elect-enable might BE ALIVE - and then SEE that they have ALREADY been given eternal life BEFORE they willed ANYTHING at all" ("Calvinism 101. Day two").

    Instead of that Calvinist model - Christ present the Arminian model of God Loving the entire WORLD and then Giving His Son without restriction so that WHOSOEVER WILLS (man) to accept that unlimitted gift - should be saved.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    "I will DRAW ALL MEN (ALL MANKIND) UNTO ME" John 12:32(instead of limited atonement).
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Agreed - it is "unqualified" ALL.

    No restrictions.

    Just as in the case "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - Unqualified and unrestricted. Best understood as "ALL MANKIND" has sinned and fallen short of God's perfect standard.

    Christ will draw "ALL" - for "ALL" have sinned and ALL are in need of salvation.

    Romans 5 makes that equivalence perfectly showing that death spread to ALL and that same ALL are those that stand to benefit from the atoning sacrifice of the ONE - Christ Jesus - the second Adam.

    Agreed - it is limited to people -- "humans" and so "ALL MANKIND".

    The perfect Arminian text.

    (Skipping the Calvinism 101 segment on this one. Hope no one minds)

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2003
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    Luke 8 "Rocky Ground and Thorny Ground" where the DEAD spring to LIFE and then die back again. ( Instead of losing free will after you become saved )
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Agreed the Matt 13 parable of the weeds is an entirely DIFFERENT illustration than the Luke 8 parable.

    In Luke 8 THE lifeless GROUND is the people and the SEED is the Gospel. Then the LIVING PLANT is the born-again ALIVE IN CHRIST miraculous new birth.

    In Matt 13 the living SEED is the person. Physically alive.

    Clearly you would like to focus on the Matt 13 parable INSTEAD - since it is less devastating to the Calvinist position on the surface than Luke 8 is.

    I can understand why you would prefer to do that - but why not answer Luke 8 and then start a separate response dealing with Matt 13 on its own?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2003
  13. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Topic opened: God created man to have free will, man became a sinner! God sent his Son, the sacrificial Lamb of God, to die on the Cross in atonement for the sins of the world, All Mankind, not limiting his atonement to anyone. Topic closed.
     
    #13 Yelsew, Apr 13, 2003
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by BobRyan:
    And of course it is no wonder that the Arminian view is so much in harmony with the teachings of Christ - these principles are in scripture itself.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Go ahead and address Luke 8 then and show how that works.

    Or show how the forgiveness revoked idea of Matt 18 fits Calvinism.

    Or show how the "drawing of the UNQUALIFIED term ALL" the unrestricted ALL - "ALL MANKIND" - is the IDEAL way of saying "IF I be lifted up I will draw the FEW of Matt 7 unto Me".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh yes - Arminianism 101. Day 1 of class.

    You are handing it back to me.


    Thanks.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2003
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    No BobRyan, Christianity 101! You can keep your Arminianism, and the Calvinists can keep their Calvinism!
     
    #16 Yelsew, Apr 13, 2003
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well then clearly you are not a 5 point Calvinist.

    Since I agree with the "T" of the Tulip and with some "flavor" of the "P" - I guess Arminians are "two-point Calvinists".

    In any case - you appear to have abandoned Calvinism's "L" - limited atonement.

    Nice going.

    You are right - that is "Christian". But having said that - the "limited atonement" Calvlinsts are also Christian - they are just wrong on the idea of limited atonement.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2003
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    The limitied Atonement Calvinists are Hyphenated Christians. e.g. Calvinist-Christians. That is, they attend the same church but come in the side door! Same for Arminians. Same church but other side door.
     
    #18 Yelsew, Apr 13, 2003
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yelsew - I am reading the "Christ a Calvinist?" thread and there you debate with Pastor Larry and "appear to be Arminian" in all 5 points of the Calvinist distinctives.

    So what are you and I debating here? Just OSAS??
    Loss of free will after getting saved??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2003
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Looks more to me like a redefinition of what "His own" means in order to get the conclusion you want.
     
    #20 npetreley, Apr 13, 2003
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