"Christendom....we have a problem"

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by stilllearning, Jun 13, 2008.

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  1. stilllearning

    stilllearning
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    In these last days, we are seeing a lot of new ideas, in the area of ministry: E.G. Video presentations, Power point presentations, You tube videos, sites like this etc.. And although there is nothing wrong with these tools, there is "something wrong". Because during this same period of time, the Church's mission is failing. (i.e. People's lives aren't being changed). Therefore, we must be doing something wrong.

    Before I continue, let me explain how we can tell, that people's lives, aren't being changed. It all has to do with, a lack of true repentance. Some Churches may be full, but the people's hearts are empty; And the reason we know this, is because of all the open sin in their lives. When Jesus is changing people, they are going to be dealing with their sin. And when people are dealing with their sins, pornography and alcohol sales, start dropping off. -This isn't happening.-

    Now back to my main point; i.e. "The question is, how we can have all the latest technology at our disposal, and yet our message seems to be powerless to really change people's lives?" The source to this problem, has to do with a lack of power. How can we be preaching, "the right message", yet see that same message, powerless to change people's lives?

    The answer to this question, boils down to "words". We may have "the right message" but are we using the right words to convey it? There is a doctrine, that all true believers accept, but many misunderstand it. That is, the doctrine of "verbal inspiration". We all agree on what "inspiration" means: (i.e. "God breathed") but what about that word, "verbal"? The word verbal, means "using words". God gave us our Bible, using "words", and not simply ideas. Therefore, the true power of God's message, lies in His Words, and not just in His message.

    This is the whole issue with the King James Version, of the Bible. These who translated the King James, believed that the words were important, therefore they translated the original languages into English, word for word(as close as it could be). But the philosophy behind "every other English translation", is that "words aren't important, but the ideas are;" This is why they feel free to change the words, any way they choose. (Like has be said for years, "If you change the words you change the meaning!")

    But something else has happened. When the words are changed, the power of the words is taken away.

    Today, most ministers, are trying to get God's message out to the world and the Church; But they are overlooking a vital component, to God's message. We must use "God's Words", to get God's message across, with power.

    God's powerful message is,
    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

    and not,

    "For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life."

    Note: When you change the words, you rob the message, of God's power!
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Wrong. The problem is that we are to busy doing and not busy enough waiting. My signature addresses this clearly. And to quote Dr. David Allen:

    "Heaven help us to know the difference between a crowd and a church."
     
  3. sag38

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    Stillearning, you have a lot to learn. I see no difference in the rendering of the two verses. They mean the same thing. Anyone with an unbiased view can see that. You are giving to much power to the KJV. What Chinese version is the "right" word of God? Or what Spanish version is the "right"word of God. Which was the right one before the KJV, the Latin Vulgate?
     
    #3 sag38, Jun 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2008
  4. ReformedBaptist

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    I too am curious at how the two verse there say something different. Perhaps you could help me see that.
     
  5. stilllearning

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    Hi Revmitchell

    You said.....
    “The problem is that we are to busy doing and not busy enough waiting.”

    I agree.

    But what I am saying, is that “getting away from the Bible”, has caused us to forget, how many times the LORD tells us to wait on him........

    Psalms 27:14 "Wait on the LORD: be of good courage,
    and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD."
    --------------------------------------------------
    When people are brain-washed, into thinking that “no Bible can be trusted to be 100% correct”, then they start ignoring verses like this.
     
  6. stilllearning

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    Hi sag38

    You are right....”my view is biased”.
    Because of my love for the KJV, although I reject “double inspiration”.

    As for the best Bibles in Chinese or Spanish, I don’t know. Maybe if they have a Bible in their language, that was translated from the Textus Receptus and the Masoretic text, it would be a good one.

    All I do know, is how God has wonderfully blessed my study of the KJV, and from what I read about Church history, 99% of English speaking Christians, agreed with me, from the late 1600's through the late 1800's.

    Therefore, my opinion is, that the problems we are seeing in the Church, are mostly a result of getting away from a Bible that we can stand on, like a solid rock.
     
  7. stilllearning

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    Hi ReformedBaptist

    You are also right; These two versions of John 3:16, seem to say the same thing.

    But the point that I am making, is that “if it’s not broke, don’t fix it”.

    Why even come out with another English Bible. So what, if some people have trouble with the old English, I got over it.

    The problem is, with every new English Bible that is published, it even more convinces people, that God was not able to preserve His Word for us.
     
  8. donnA

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    There are people who don't read well, you would deprive them of reading scripture. Why would a person read a version they have difficulty with, that has so many words no longer in use that they do not understand what the bible says. Again, people being deprived of the word of God.

    It's a faith issue. Who isn't convinced?
     
  9. StefanM

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  10. dan e.

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    You have just told us why we shouldn't believe you.

    Read "The King James Controversy" by James White. It's a good book.
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    stilllearning, be careful about making general statements. I think we all can agree that people are less receptive to the gospel these days, but assigning the blame is not easy.

    The Church's mission is not failing, since there is no such thing as "The Church." Individual churches may be failing to carry out the Great Commission, but there are individual churches which are. To your contrary, people's lives ARE being changed by the power of God. They are the ones whom God has saved. God is doing his saving work all over the world.



    Some churches are full, and the people's heart are filled with joy and worship. Some are not. My own church is never full, but the hearts of the people are turned toward God.

    OUR message is always powerless in and of itself. Only when God opens the hearts of the hearers and stirs them to respond, will we see the message be effective. You can preach the right message with the right words, and without the work of the Holy Spirit, it will fall on deaf ears and stony hearts.

    The most powerful moves of the Holy Spirit in my congregation have come when the pastor didn't even preach. People began to testify and glorify God, singing broke out, tears began to flow and praise came from lips.


    I'm not getting into the KJV discussion, except to say that no one and nothing robs God of his power.
     
  12. rbell

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    Stilllearning is right. We would be seeing God move if we would use the Greek and Hebrew, like He intended.

    [/sarcasm]

    I'm sure that had he been alive in 1612, stillearning would have railed against the "new-fangled" KJV.
     
  13. canadyjd

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    That is clearly not true. If it were, those who translated the Kiing James version would have used the words "immersed in water" every time they used their invented word "baptized". They didn't most likely because they realized the real meaning of the word was contrary to the common practice of the day (sprinkling).

    Although I believe the KJV is a good translation, they made many mistakes and they obviously didn't know as much about the original languages (Greek and Hebrew) as we do today.
    A silly accusation.
    This sounds an awful lot like the "word of faith" crowd.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  14. stilllearning

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    Hi donnA

    You said.......
    “There are people who don't read well, you would deprive them of reading scripture. Why would a person read a version they have difficulty with, that has so many words no longer in use that they do not understand what the bible says. Again, people being deprived of the word of God.”
    --------------------------------------------------
    Well, I am one of those people(who don’t read well), but the LORD has blessed my study.

    I recall years ago, as a baby Christian, I was reading through Genesis, for the very first time, and came to......
    Genesis 4:5
    "But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell."


    I remember saying to my self, “What in the world is a “countenance”, and why did his fall”; Well I grabbed an English dictionary, and found out what it was. Then I understood what was being said.

    Also, if this was really an issue, you would think that, with all the variety of Bible’s available today, the Church, would be in wonderful shape, and people’s lives would be a testimony of the power of God’s Word.
    -But this just isn’t the case.-

    See you later
     
  15. stilllearning

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    Hi StefanM

    You said.........
    “Why did those meddling translators decided to come out with a new Bible in 1611? They already had the Geneva Bible in English!”

    The KJV, was the first English Bible, intended to be mass-produced, and given to everyone. (So everybody could have their own copy of God’s Word!)

    -And it worked!-
     
  16. rbell

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    Faulty cause and effect. I could just as easily argue that air conditioning is the cause of the church's decline.

    I admire your passion...but your arguments are not Biblical ones.
     
  17. Revmitchell

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    KJVOism is weak and misguided
     
  18. tinytim

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    Let's give stilllearning a chance to explain this...

    If exact words are important, then why did Jesus misquote the Masoretic text which says...

    Isa 61:1-2
    (1)
    The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;
    (2) To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

    Jesus didn't quote the text that underlies the KJV...
    so which one should we go with.. what Jesus said Isaiah said, or what the KJV said Isaiah said?

    Here is what Jesus said He said...
    Luk 4:17-20
    (17)
    And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
    (18) The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
    (19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
    (20) And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

    BTW, Jesus was closer to the LXX than the Masoretic text...

    So since we are to follow Jesus' example, we need to use the LXX not the KJV.
     
  19. stilllearning

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    Hi Tom Butler

    Well Tom, I see what you mean. Because my life is changing. Maybe I should have said, “Not as many people's lives are being changed, as could be”, because as you said, “Individual churches may be failing”.
    --------------------------------------------------
    So you and I, are in agreement, in this area.
    --------------------------------------------------
    No Tom, the message of the Gospel, is NEVER POWERLESS, because it’s God’s Message. This is why a woman preacher, can see converts. Because even though she is in disobedience, and the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found, if she is preaching God’s Gospel, it has to power to save souls.

    --------------------------------------------------
    I never said, that you could rob God of anything:
    I said....you rob the message, of God's power!

    The Bible has power, to change people’s lives.......
    Psalms 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

    But when you mess with the Bible, it changes everything!


    See you later
     
  20. tinytim

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    Jesus also did not quote the bible the same as the Masoretic text when he used the scriptures against Satan....
    Even when he was talking about using the Word of God....

    Here is what Jesus said.... notice it says, "It is written", did Jesus lie? NO... He just didn't quote the source from the KJV...
    Mat 4:4
    (4)
    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Here is what it actually says... I will highlight the differences...
    Deu 8:3
    (3)
    ...man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

    Now don't say, it says the same thing.. because according to the logic in the OP, it says something different... And the KJV translators even had to add to the Scriptures to make it say close to the same thing as it does in Matthew.. They added the word, "word".. notice the italics...
     
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