Christian Church -- Baptismal Regeneration

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by baptistbro, Aug 10, 2006.

  1. baptistbro

    baptistbro
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    I've been browsing www.christianchurchtoday.com and can't believe all the threads on baptism and how you have to be baptized to be saved. Have any of you read that stuff? They have a forum if you scroll down the page.

    Baptistbro
     
  2. Snitzelhoff

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    I can't count the times that very subject has been discussed on these forums just in the time I've been here. I will warn you that you may have re-opened a fairly big can of worms in posting about that, but if you go back a couple of pages, you'll probably find the last debate (entitled "Fun with Baptism") that was spawned on this board.
     
  3. baptistbro

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    You don't know any Baptists that believe this do you?

    Baptistbro
     
  4. Snitzelhoff

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    Don't know any personally, though I've heard they exist.
     
  5. Darron Steele

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    Let me give you a short answer.

    We are saved by grace through faith. We are not saved by works. Works follow our salvation. This is what Ephesians 2:8-10 indicates.

    We are saved by our faith without works per Romans 4:5. Our faith goes to work per Galatians 5:6 and James 2:14-26.

    That faith will cause general good works of service, as well as specific acts such as baptism -- but we are saved beforehand by the faith that motivates them.

    Every passage used to try to support a belief that we are not saved until completed baptism can be translated differently or understood in terms of the ancient world better.

    I am a member of the Restoration tradition and my understanding of Scripture on this has caused me some problems in churches.

    I have details on this paper on my document website www.geocities.com/steeledl/wrdbap21.pdf if you want to know. It is about 800 kilobytes and is 45 pages.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Mark 16:16

    16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

    Here we see "believer's baptism" - the idea of "baptismal regeneration" requires you to leap to the false idea of "unsaved believers" - of "believers" that are not born again - but "believe and study and obey anyway". You have to reject the view of the sinful nature seen in Romans 3.

    The DRAWING of God enables an unsaved - unbelieving lost person to CHOOSE faith - but then at that point of "belief" they are a New Creation.
     
    #6 BobRyan, Aug 11, 2006
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  7. God's Word is TRUTH

    God's Word is TRUTH
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    (James 2:14-26)

    "14": What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    "15": If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    "16": And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

    "17": Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    "18": Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    "19": Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    "20": But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    "21": Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    "22": Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    "23": And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    "24": Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    "25": Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

    "26": For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    so your saying that all believers are saved? so the devils(demons) are saved. James tells us that they believe and tremble. They have met your requirement for belief, therefore, by what your saying demons are saved. and also about Mark 16:16, most people say that since he didn't say and is not baptized shall be damned. but if you didn't believe in Jesus Christ would you want to be baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the holy ghost? belief always precedes baptism, without belief, there is no baptism.

    The passages dealing with baptism could not be more plain. The twisting could not be more blatant. Here is the result of twisting:

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved = He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized

    Repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins = Repent for the remission of your sins and be baptized because your sins have already been forgiven

    Be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord = Call on the name of the Lord and wash away your sins, then be baptized

    Baptized into Christ = Baptized as a symbol that we are already in Christ

    Baptism now saves us = Baptism now does not save us

    I know there are variations on the twisting and I would not be surprised to see more variants.


    here is how the bible gives it to us

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved = He that believth and is baptized shall be saved

    Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins = Repent and be baptized...for the remission of sins

    Be baptized and wash away your sins = Be baptized and wash away your sins

    Baptized into Christ = Baptized into Christ

    Baptism now saves us = Baptism now saves us

    No twisting required!


    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     
    #7 God's Word is TRUTH, Aug 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2006
  8. Darron Steele

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    Baptistbro: In the Churches of Christ, there is often a refusal to deal with any notion that pet verses in English translation could possibly mean something at variance with their teachings.

    For instance, when one goes to the Greek to challenge the accuracy of Church of Christ teaching of various passages, s/he is characterized as `explaining away Scripture.' The New Testament was written in ancient Greek, but despite trying to be `first century churches' they are unwilling to engage fully the New Testament churches' text.

    The same occurs when someone takes note of ancient customs and manners. S/he is characterized as `explaining away Scripture.' In many Churches of Christ, there is a pretense to be `first century churches' but again the first century world is disregarded.

    They claim to take `the whole Word of God' but are often unwilling to consider surrounding passages.

    However, the biggest problem baptismal regenerists have is such as below:
    Basically, they are quick to tell everyone what others believe and disregard what those others actually do believe. They are not willing to allow those they disagree with to speak for themselves; they want to do it themselves, and discourage anyone from actually finding out others' true beliefs.

    The Churches of Christ are in some types of congregations dying and in other types redirecting because of these mischaracterizations. I am happy to be among the churches that are part of the redirecting.
     
    #8 Darron Steele, Aug 12, 2006
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  9. Revmitchell

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  10. BobRyan

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    #1. First of all Mark 16:16 shows us that only "believer's Baptism" is called for - not "infant baptism".

    #2. Secondly Romans 3 shows us that the depraved lost soul is not going BELIEVE AND follow in OBEDIENCE in their OLD nature!

    #3. Romans 10 shows us clearly that BELIEF is what results in salvation.

    #4. Baptism is a "WORK of obedience" that DOES follow belief.

    #5. James 2 speaks of those with Genuine faith whose faith "produces the good fruit" that Christ affirms in Matt 7 -- vs -- those with fake-faith. Christ said "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord... but he who DOES the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven" Matt 7.

    I have no problem with works that follow belief and faith SHOWING that INWARDLY there is the "good tree bearing good fruit" -- there is the "New Creation" created unto good works - but the good work of baptism does not come from a "bad tree" -
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Romans 10

    saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

    Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


    In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
    #1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
    #2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
    #3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

    By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
    #1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
    #2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
    #3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
    #4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

    Mark 16:16: “He who BELIEVES and is baptized shall be saved”

    For infant baptism it would be “He who is baptized is saved EVEN if he does not believe

    Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -


    #1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
    #2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
    #3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
    #4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.
     
  12. God's Word is TRUTH

    God's Word is TRUTH
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    I would be happy to go into the greek on it, please tell me what you believe, and you know what i believe, then we can compare it to the scriptures and see what God says is true.

    i didn't say anything about infant baptism, i don't believe in infant baptism, but Mark 16:16 tells us that belief+baptism= salvation.

    romans 10, if it was only belief that saves us then demons would also be saved. James 2. and if you go on in romans 10 it says whosoever shall call on the name of the lord shall be saved. what is calling on the name of the lord? well in Acts 22:16 it tells us that baptism washes away our sins and that baptism is Calling on the name of the lord.

    "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord... but he who DOES the will of My Father will enter the kingdom of heaven" Matt 7.

    exactly, we need to do God's will, and his will tells us that belief + baptism = salvation(Mark 16:16) and that repentence + baptism = salvation( Acts 22:16)

    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     
  13. DHK

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    No it doesn't. It doesn't teach that at all. Scripture doesn't contradict Scripture and you have the propensity to make the Bible contradict itself in order to force your theology into it.
    The Bible says clearly:

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    --It does not say that by baptism we are justified, but by faith, and faith alone. There is no baptism here, and I could quote perhaps a hundred others that teach the same thing. But you take a two or three verses and skew their meanings to fit your own theology.

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    1. The verse is written as a parallel. Why doesn't it say "he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned? Because baptism is not needed.
    2. The verse is a typical expression that we use every day. You use it also in your speech and yet you don't recognize it here.

    You live in Tenessee and want to go to the Twin Cities. You approach the counter. The agent says: "Place your ticket on the counter and your luggage on the scale. Now the ticket she needs. I cannot board the plane without the ticked. But what if don't place my luggage on the conveyer belt (for her to weigh)? What if I am travelling light and don't have any luggage to check? Will I still make it my destination? Of course I will. It is the ticket that gets me there, not the luggage. Placing the luggage on the scale was a matter of obedience after the ticket was given. But it was the ticket that would get me to my destination.
    The ticket is Jesus. The destination is Heaven. You can try to take all the baggage you want but it won't make it. Obedience is good, but baptism won't get you to heaven. Only Jesus will. He is the ticket to Heaven. Believe on him and you shall be saved. Baptism is just the baggage of obedience that follows.
    This is the most ridiculous argument that I have heard yet.
    Remember that Christ is alive. He is risen from the dead. We are not simply talking about a historical person. So when you believe "in" the Lord Jesus Christ, you are believing "in" (present tense) a person that lives today.
    I believe "in" President Bush as he pushes forward in his plan to wage war against terrorism. That is I not only believe that he exists, I believe in him as a person, as a capable president. I believe in what he is doing.
    That obviously is not the case with demons. Do the demons believe in Christ? No, absolutely not. They believe in his existence, but they do not believe in him as Lord. When I believe in President Bush, I (without publicly doing so) am confessing him as the president of the U.S.). I don't have to broadcasting that everywhere I go. When I believe in Christ, I automatically am confessing Him as Lord, even without broadcasting it. It is part of my belief. However, I will confess Him publicly as part of my faith. How could I help from not doing so?
    It is exactly what it says. It is part of my belief. Do you call upon your president (your government whom he represents) because you believe they will act on your behalf? I called upon Christ because I beleive he would act on my behalf to pay the penalty of my sins that I deserve. I called = I believed.
    Jameison, Faucett and Brown translate the verse as "having called upon the name of the Lord." Paul had already been saved when he called upon the name of the Lord on the way to Damascus, well before he met Ananias. This is a well established fact. His baptism had nothing to do with. You are only reading into this verse what you want it to say.
    So now you are teaching the heresy that salvation is by works and not by faith.
    That is not what the Bible teaches:

    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    --But you teach a gospel of works, a heresy.
    DHK
     
  14. God's Word is TRUTH

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    there is no contradiction, we are justified by faith, but where does it say faith alone. if you read the next chapter Romans 6 we see that without baptism we can't be buried with Christ and our bodies of sin cannot be destroyed. and we cannot die with Christ without baptism. its a very good chapter you should read it.

    Mark 16:16 okay if you didn't believe that Jesus is the son of God, the Christ would you be baptized in his name? if you don't believe, then there is no reason to be baptized. why would you need to say and is not baptized? without baptism belief is worthless and all you are doing is getting wet, and belief without baptism is worthless, because you are not obeying God's will.

    what James 2 is saying is that faith without works is DEAD!!! (verse 26) and James is making the point that people are saying "I have faith" and James says that you believe that there is one God, he says Good, but the devils also believe and tremble. so the point is that if all you have is faith then you are not justified.

    okay, it doesn't matter how those three translate it, what matters is how the greek gives it to us. and paul was not saved on the road to damascus, where does it tell us that, it says that he ask the lord what he had to do, and Jesus told him to go into the city and it shall be told to him what he should do, and it was he was told to be baptized, to wash away his sins, and call on the name of the lord.

    for by grace we are saved through faith, Colossians 2:12 tells us that baptism is an operation of faith.

    don't get me wrong, baptism isn't all that is required for salvation, hearing, faith, repentence, confessing Jesus as the son of God, and baptism are all equally important. if one is missing then the rest are worthless.

    I hope that we can all surrender to God's will and do what God tells us to.

    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
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    You have a religion of works;
    A religion of doubts,
    A religion of what ifs?
    A religion of what abouts?

    But the Scripture plainly says:
    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    It does not say faith plus hot dogs
    It does not say faith plus baptism,
    It does not even say faith plus repentance
    Is simply says: "justified by faith."

    For the slow of learning, that translates into "faith alone."

    You can say: "Wait, What about...James, Romans 2, etc., etc.,"
    But the Scripture says "A man is justified by faith;
    Not by hot dogs; not by baptism.
    But by faith and by faith alone.
    DHK
     
  16. God's Word is TRUTH

    God's Word is TRUTH
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    okay, your useing only one verse to "prove" your point (psalms 119:160) the sum of thy word is truth (ASV) so we see that we can't just get one verse and say well there you go its proven, we have to understand the entirety of God's word to understand his truth.

    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
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    The difference is:
    I can take any such salvation verse and show you how it in and of itself will stand alone as a grain of truth, a timeless truth that runs throughout the entirety of Scripture.
    However, I can also explain each one of the verses that you throw at me, how you take them out of context, misconstrue them, make them mean what they don't mean, use eisigesis and not exegesis, read into Scripture that which is not in Scripture, make arguments from silence, etc.

    The Scriptures I give you stand alone. I will give you another one that you cannot explain away:

    Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    DHK
     
  18. God's Word is TRUTH

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    for by grace we are saved through faith, Colossians 2:12 tells us that baptism is an operation of faith.

    I'm not trying to explain it away. its right, we are saved through faith, without faith we cannot be saved, everything we do is based on our faith.

    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
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    1. As stated you can't explain the verse as it stands alone. You just demonstrated that to all.
    2. Col.2:12 says nothing about baptism being an operation of faith. You demonstrated your twisiting of Scripture. The faith refers to the resurrection of Christ, not baptism. Baptism is purely symbolic.
    But I am not here to discuss Col.2:12. I gave you a verse of Scripture and it is obvious that you cannot explain it without bringing in other verses to prop up your heresy. This verse explains salvation in a nutshell as do many other verses in the Bible. Your problem is your refusal to believe what the Bible says about salvation. It is clear and simple, without any additions. It is not a gospel of works as Eph.2:8,9 so plainly says. But the COC has made it a gospel of works. The blood of Christ is insufficient to atone for our sins (according to the COC). Baptism (a work of man), must help in the atonement. That is heresy.
    DHK
     
  20. God's Word is TRUTH

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    baptism isn't a work, you are not earning your salvation, and there is nothing in the water that saves your it is the appeal of a good concience. 1 pet. 3:21, tells us that baptism saves us, its not taking a bath and removing the filth from the flesh , but baptism is an appeal of a good concience toward God. try to explain that verse as it stands please.

    In Christian Love,

    Dustin
     

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