Christian Civil Wars

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by CubeX, Mar 26, 2005.

  1. CubeX

    CubeX
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    The issues that most Christians are debating about are unimportant relatively to the spreading of the truth. Why is everyone so caught up in these Christian civil wars?

    For the longest time I honestly thought that no oe actually cared about God, religion, etc. esp. since the only place I heard about God was from religious-based places and peoples. That was until I went to Jamaica a few weeks ago. I found that people are very enthusiastic about what they believe in places other than America. I even had the privelege to be part of a group that let 2 Rastafarians to Christ. If you don't know what the Rastafarian belief is, type it in on Google.

    This is how I found that people do care about issues like God. To go into a market and a talk to a man for an hour about God because he thought it was crazy to do good in the world because everyone else was doing bad. And this man wasn't from Jamaica! He was from Ohio! Then to go out on the beach at a Bible study one night andhave a man curse us because we were Christians and shouting that Jesus was the devil and we were going to hell because we believe in him -- that made an impact on my life.

    So now again I ask my original question: why do we argue about doctrine over the lives of dying people?

    Why do we fight over which tradition and organizational matter is most important while most of the people who do, including a lot of people on this board couldn't tell me why they believe in God?

    Some people would say that we should have all our beliefs in order before we try to talk to non-Christians. The only thing that we need to have in order is our salvation. If a man has been saved and has not (as of yet) found evolution to be false, if that man dies, will he not go to heaven? If a woman preaches and 10,000 come to Christ, while a man preaches and only 1 does, does that mean that women should preach over man? Certainly not, it only means that people came to the saving knowledge of Christ. It does not make one better than the other. "But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?" - Romans 3:5

    Please focus on what is important to God over what is important to man. Jesus came to save the world, not set up an organized religion. Organized religion is necessary for man though so that he can thoroughly think through his thoughts. It keeps order and promotes the love of Christ though unity. That's the reason we have church customs and traditions.

    I will expound on these thoughts later on and find Scripture to promote what I'm saying along with any that goes against what I'm saying. I apologize for the lengthliness of this post. Thank you for taking to time to dicuss with me.
    -David
     
  2. Ben W

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    Good post David!

    What I think, and this is my own opinion, is that when a person is saved as such, he probably has an idea of what it is about as far as he can understand. Yet there comes a point where he may well have a revelation of what Jesus Christ really is all about after a certain point. It is in that moment I believe that it becomes clear what matters and what does not.

    In any event David, it is good to hear your testimony of what God is doing in Jamacia, may He bring the same revival to Australia too!
     
  3. CubeX

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    Thanks for replying Ben! I hope others will soon. Maybe this will make someone "mad enough" to actually think about the relatively unimportant issues compared to the key issue of Christianity -- salvation.

    I'll be praying for Australia!

    -David

    Also, did anyone else see this? -
    That's a lot of T's! [​IMG]
     
  4. CubeX

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    Let me make a rather intrusive statement:

    It's sad that no one seems to want to resolve conflict through a reconsideration of the relative importance of issues.

    How will you reach the world?

    -David
     
  5. BobRyan

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    It is true that differences in tradition often do not amount to a hill of beans. But in your list above you include things like the atheist's model of "origins" that we know today as evolutionism.

    John thought that the literal foundation of the literal fact that Christ is literally the creator was important enough to make it the starting point for his Gospel (John 1:1-3).

    In Christ's day you could be pagan or Jew. You could worship false gods and go to hell or you could worship the one true God and go to heaven like the pre-cross saints of Heb 11.

    YET in that context we have the Sadducees and the Pharisees debating over the resurrection. So given that there were still so many pagans in the world - was the subject of "resurrection" important anyway??

    In Matt 22 Christ gets into that very debate. This is an in-house Jewish debate for those ALREADY choosing against Paganism and already choosing the one true God. Should they just drop it?

    In 1Cor 15 Paul makes the right focus on the resurrection the entire hope and basis for the Gospel's future promise to the Christian.

    in 1Thess 4 Paul makes the fact of the resurrection the primary source of comfort for Christians that have lost friends and family to death.

    Evolutionism destroys faith in God's Word, destroys the basis and foundation for the gospel, destroys the moral compass for society so that abortion seems ok and then so also gay rights. (A moral decay chain is initiated with evolutionism "given enough time" and the right environment the dark plant will bloom).

    So in answer to your question - althought there are petty squabbles that don't amount to a hill of beans -- atheism's evolutionism is not one of them.

    I believe that many Catholics will be in heaven and are saved -- but I also believe Catholicism promotes truck loads of error (including evolutionism) and that millions of the saints were slaughtered over a period of many centuries by the RCC DUE to that real and significant doctrinal error.

    Imagine yourself standing up to the established church of Euorope and burning at the stake for refusing to worship Mary.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    By that do you mean that Jesus had no theology - no doctrine? No teaching about salvation, sin, God?

    Do you mean that the Apostles were not leaders in the church?

    Do you mean that the list of 1Cor 12 does not provide an order of authority and leadership in the Church?

    In 1Tim 3 (and in chapter 5) we see Elders and Deacons discussed - this shows order and "organized churches".

    In Acts 15 we see centralized authority and government where area churches (even remote churches) submit to the decisions of a centralized council.

    Or do you mean something else when you speak of "organized religion"?


    This is a good and nobel thing you research on this thread. Keep going.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. CubeX

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    THe evolution thing was only a statement that a man believed in evolution and THEN found Christ. Before he fully stopped believing in evolution, he died. He still went to heaven. I believe fully that creatin is one of the most important things in the Bible. I have not greater arguments than the ones for this fact.
    "
    Or do you mean something else when you speak of "organized religion"?
    "
    Actually, yes. I meant that Christ never spoke of anything like the Islamic belief for example. He didn't say "women must cover thier faces" or "men must not shave", he came to bring salvation. Although He DID state that Peter would be the rock that the church would be build upon, or that He would put authority on Peter to start the Christian church. The church was only needed after His ascension.

    Like I said, I'm looking for things for and against what I say. I'm new to debating with other Christians (with a few exceptions) about theological issues. I'm still having to realize that it's different from debating with athiests and agnostics. Also, this is very difficult here because misunderstandings aren't handled with love and concern, but usually with harsh words and presumptious statements. I thank-you for your Christ-like attitude as I find my strong basis on theological issues.

    I will admit, I just don't think they matter. That's what I'm trying to get past!

    God-bless!
    -David
     
  8. BobRyan

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    My point is that if you look at the debate Christ engaged in in Mark 7 "The traditions of the church" that replaced the commandments of God - He "did" seem to think that error "mattered".

    In 1Tim chapter 1 you find that the entire reason that Paul left Timothy behind at Ephesus was JUST to solve the problem of bad doctrinal error being promoted in the church of Ephesus.

    In Acts 20 Paul argues that AFTER his departure grevious wolves would arise FROM AMONG your own selves drawing away disciples "After themselves".

    In 2Cor 11 Paul fears that those "preaching another Christ" might be accepted in the church.

    In Gal 1 Paul says "IF ANYONE comes preaching a different Gospel than we have already given you - let him be accursed". He even says "IF WE or an ANGEL FROM heaven" should come preaching another gospel - let him be accursed.

    In 2Thess 2:1-4 Paul predicts a falling-away from the truth will happen in the church prior to the end of the world.

    In Titus 1 Paul again commands that bad doctrine be addressed vigorously.

    In 1Tim 4 Paul predicts that in the last days the doctrinal error will consist of input from deceptive spirits and doctrines of demons.

    Your approach is good in that you pick out specific doctrines to see if they are "a big deal" or "no big deal at all".

    Certainly whether or not you wear a tie - or whether you keep Passover as a Christian-feast day speaking of Christ, or wear a head covering, or only read the KJV, or choose to be vegetarian, or attend a fully integrated church, or listen to country Gospel music... are all cultural decisions. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind.

    BUT IF you decide to ignore Peter in 1Peter 3 where Peter says that Baptism is in fact "AN APPEAL to God for a clean conscience" so that INSTEAD of that - you opt for infant baptism... Then that "Does matter" - it negates the benefit of baptism.

    IF you decide that man-can-make-up-Purgatory as a doctrine and "That is ok" - then the whole issue of venial sins and indulgences and a host of evils comes in like a flood along with the "Church" having a spiritual "bank" of "excess suffering" to be applied and dished out in the form of indulgences for the dead. (Error is never-ending it seems).

    This is all the stuff over which the saints died in the dark ages.

    It matters in my opinion.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Marcia

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    CubeX, I agree there are some issues that not worthy of debate. I don't usually get into endtime issues, calvinism/arminianism, church structure, and other topics like that.

    However, doctrinal issues essential to the faith are worthy of debate and defense. We are told to "defend the faith" in Jude, and 1 and 2 Timothy several times tell us to hold to sound doctrine. We are told in Gal. 1.8 to reject "another gospel." Jesus warned of false teachers and so did Paul. Paul preached against the false teachers in Galatians. False teachers are refuted in 1 and 2 John.

    Therefore, it is biblical to defend the faith when false doctrines come up here or anywhere else. There are a lot of false teachings around, both outside and inside the church. Some people will always debate the other issues that you may not think are important - you can't talk them out of it and trying to do so is a waste of time.
     
  10. CubeX

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    Yes, you both have very good points, which led me to ask the question (primarily to myself) "Is there some form of hierarchy of commandments?" I think, rather than some heirarchy, there is a categorizing system. Christ sums up all the commandments in answers which is the greatest -- but He never undermined any of them.

    I think the assertions that I am putting forth came from a mindset of (1) the lost world does not care about doctrine, rather they need salvation BEFORE doctrines and (2) the assumption that the majority of Christians (in some cases "Christians") would promote Christ as Savior and no other, which is a doctrinal thought that is historically and philosophically based.

    One question that needs looking into is "How do these things relate?" before continuing on the subject.

    -David
     
  11. tragic_pizza

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    CubeX, you are saying, I think, the same thing I have been trying to say.

    Rest assured, no one will listen. But thank you for saying it.
     
  12. CubeX

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    tragic_pizza, I believe that there must be some viewpoint from which this argument is being made that both you and I have discovered. It lays hidden beneath the arguments, and so, if you would discuss with me, we can bring that viewpint out. Is your post still up (assuming you had a post similar to this one)?

    -David
     
  13. tragic_pizza

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    It's spread all through several threads. "Pentecostal Man's Glossolalia..." for one, especially the latter pages.

    Have you read Brian McLaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy?" This book has helped me to better articulate the things I've been learning over the past few years.
     
  14. CubeX

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    No, but I will be sure to check it out!
    -David
     
  15. Travelsong

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    Evolution and the age of the earth are completely irrelevant to salvation.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Someone should have told God that about HIS role as our God and Creator.

    John completely goofed by establishing the role of Christ as the Creator in John 1:1-3 as the foundation truth for his gospel.

    And oh what a mistake that angel of Rev 14 makes telling us to worship our creator in his EVERLASTING Gospel!

    Never thought slicing and dicing scripture would be so easy.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. tragic_pizza

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    Someone should have told God that about HIS role as our God and Creator.

    John completely goofed by establishing the role of Christ as the Creator in John 1:1-3 as the foundation truth for his gospel.

    And oh what a mistake that angel of Rev 14 makes telling us to worship our creator in his EVERLASTING Gospel!

    Never thought slicing and dicing scripture would be so easy.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't see travelson's post as in any way disputing God's role in creation. He merely said that viewpoints which embrace a given worldview in re creation timelines and methodologies aren't the stuff by which Christ will judge us.
     
  18. Travelsong

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    God has already told us His role. He Willed, He spoke, and it came to be.

    How so?

    Why do you think the angels are in error?


    Don't kid yourself, you've been doing it for quite some time.

    A man comes to saving faith through Jesus Christ by conviction of the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Evolution is wrong according to the NT authors.

    In 1Tim 2 - Paul argues from the FACT of Creation - Adam created FIRST and Eve FIRST deceived.

    In Romans 1 Paul argues from the FACT of Creation being directly from the hand of God so that EVEN the PAGANS see the hand of God (design and direct creation) in nature.

    In the Gospels Christ argues in favor of the view that GOD established Marriage between one man - Adam and one woman - Eve.

    In Mark 2 Christ argues for the MAKING of CREATION WEEK's SEVENTH day as a literal event MADE for mankind.

    The LITERAL view of Creation is evident to the point of John 1 and Colossians 1 claiming that ALL that exists was made directly by God.

    In Rev 14 we have the command to "WORSHIP HIM WHo MADE..." as key the "everlasting Gospel"...

    The idea that "INSTEAD" of God we have "disease, starvation, carnage, death and extinction" MAKING all that we have -- is foreign to scripture AND the Gospel.

    As for ATheist EVOlUTIONISTS who KNOW what Evolution is saying ... well..

    Richard Dawkins is Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. He is the author of many books including the international best-sellers "The Selfish Gene", "The Blind Watchmaker", and "Climbing Mount Improbable."

    FROM : http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/transcript/dawk-frame.html
    Excerpt –


    (Note for the Reader: In the above quote Dawkins argues that Christian evolutionist think “God does something”, that “God contributes something” to the subject of origins. And on that point alone – Dawkins argues for the inconsistency and flawed logic of so-called-christian-evolutionism.

    Christian evolutionist sometimes argue against Dawkins claiming that HE has made too much of a grandiose claim about what Christian-evolutionists think God is doing.

    How sad that Christian evolutionists are prone to going to such extremes.)


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Travelsong

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    The New Testament authors did not address evolution.

    Adam is the father and first representative of the human race.

    Yes, creation does not lead men to the cross, but it is enough to make them accountable to God.

    This has what to do with salvation and the remission of sins?

    This has what to do with salvation and the remission of sins?


    What Christian would deny this?

    Keep stuffing that strawman.


    Whose idea is this? Yours?


    Address the issue at hand as a man of God who speaks from the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

    What must a man do to be saved?
     

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