Christian Evolutionist or just atheist wannabe?

Third and perhaps most glaringly - the atheist wannabe's have been prompted, encouraged, prodded to come out of their shell and show that they have "some standard" of ethics objectivity in the case of the Dover trial's dogmatic censorhip and thought-police tactics.

They could not bring themselves EVEN to that level of support for objective thinking, promotion of science, freedom of thought!!

They could not even condemn rank censorship!!

RAther they even DEFEND IT here!!

I "predict" that while our own atheist wannabe's are mired in that censorship mentality there will arise among both ATHEIST evolutionists and actual CHRISTIAN evolutionists such an outcry against this draconian standard of censorship that one day our own Atheist-wannabe's will be shamed into changing their views on Dover.

Probably that will start by "not wanting to talk about their posts in favor of censorship" on that topic. But eventually they will have to follow their atheist evolutionist handlers and admit that it was wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wrong on almost every point.

#1. We DO have sciences that deal with the measurement and recognition of intelligence.

#2. It is MORE scientific to admit that the Christmas angel standing out on my front lawn was DESIGNED rather than the "product of s sequence of highly unlikely chemical reactions".

#3. IT IS NOT "unconstitutional' to FAIL to CENSOR scientific data from science classes. RATHER it is much MORE constitutional to STOP courts and judges from demanding that data be CENSORED from science classes!

#4. Our Constitution does NOT mandate that "no data shall be allowed in science IF that finding is favorable to Christianity" - those who "make that up" are living in a liberal's "dream world".

Christian Evolutionism should at the very LEAST embrace ID as its preferred form since it SOLVES a problem that atheist Darwinian evolutionists have to GLOSS OVER!

No doubt there are much more "Evolution-friendly" ways that Behe (A Christian Evolutionist) would prefer to see ID presented.

I have already stated that the PREFERRED debate on a CHRISTIAN message board would be to have the discussion take place between CHRISTIAN EVOLUTIONISM and Pro-Bible Creationists.

As it is we are stuck with pure atheist-darwinian evolutionism of the gross type that even Christian Evolutionists like Behe can not endorse!

Why would ANYONE in the right mind endorse CENSORING data from the science class room!

Why in the world is DISCONFIRMINg data "CLEARLY SEEN IN NATURE" that proves to be against blind atheist Darwinian evolutionism considered "NOT science" JUST because it does not BOOST the Darwinian model??!!

Is there an ounce of reasoning on the ATheist-wannabe side of this??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well fortunately for this discussion you "say" you see design IN nature and when you compare you faith in Darwinian mythology to the Design you claim is in Nature you - claim that the Design you SEE in the machines in nature --is "faith".

Odd that when I SHOW how logical your supposed "faith" is in admitting to the "obvious" about those machines and encoding/decoding systems -- you object so strongly. (Maybe this thread title is well suited to your real goals)

The court was simply puppeting whatever the ACLU told it to say. Nothing new there when it comes to the pseudoscience "needs" of Darwinianism.

Interesting that when you are told about the Physicists, Biologists etc that admit to SEEING the design In nature that you "say" you believe is there - you object so "strongly" to their SEEING what you hoped would not be SEEN by faithfully claim to "believe" is there anyway!

Can you say "duplicitous"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

So that brings me to the point of this thread - was there ever an exchange where the true believers in atheist Darwininan evolutionism on this thread -- that claimed it as a "Christian" position -- appeared to be "genuine"?

When we SEE them opposing the Christian Evolutionist views of Behe BECAUSE his views do not TRASH the Romans 1 views of Paul (who claims that the hand of God is "clearly seen IN nature" even by unbelieving pagans) -- do they still hold to anything like a "genuine" position?

When we see them attack RATE EVEN before they have one single peer-reviewed objection to it -- does their so-called "Christian" evolutionism still appear "genuine"???

It does not appear to be so.

Rather - prior to having fact they simply "object on principle" as one would expect of any devoted atheist darwinist.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Behe is a Christian evolutionist - so saying that the doctrines of "Christian evolutionism" do not conflict with Behe is like saying that Neo-Darwinians do not reject Richard Dawkings. It is a redundant statement.

We "can SEE" that the Christian evolutionist position of Behe IS consistent with the Christian view of Romans 1 - that design by God is "CLEARLY SEEN" IN nature "in the THINGS that are MADE".

Obviously.

So far this is just the obvious easy part.

The QUESTION is in regard to those atheist-wannabe's that "blindly follow the atheist policy of rejecting inconvenient facts found in nature when they favor Christian views. How is it that they are so cowed by their atheist companions EVEN if it means opposing the more scientifically sound position of actual CHRISTIAN evolutionists like Behe! EVEN if it means censoring data FROM the science class. EVEN if it mean opposing Romans 1 and What God says about the things that PAGANS can see in nature. EVEN if it means standing in a blinded position lower than that of the pagans in Romans 1!!

The question is - WHEN does that crowd ever wake up and smell the coffee??!

What LOGIC are they using to "believe in Darwinianism ANYWAY" EVEN thought IN nature it is "clearly SEEN" that the designer has designed the vast complexities of both living systems and the physical universe??

You keep blindly asserting that the pagans in Romans 1 are "men of great godly faith" as they "SEE" the invisible attributes of God "CLEARLY SEEN in the things that are MADE".

I keep asking you to step up to the plate as a so-called "Christian evolutionist" and SHOW how these pagans are "expressing faith" (as you say) when they admit to "what is CLEARLY SEEN". I also ask you how it is that you claim to SEE DESIGN in nature itself as Romans 1 says "clearly seen" and as Heb 11 says FAith is the substance of things "NOT SEEN" -- you claim to need faith to BELIEVE in what you claim to "Clearly SEE" in nature!!!

(Showing that the convoluted, contradictory, conflicted positions you have taken are not only conflicted with Gospel, they are also conflicted with reason and science. NO ATheist is gonna admit that "he CLEARLY SEES" the design that you claim to see openly. He must "censor" that fact)

But then you claim that when you SEE the complex systems with encoding and decoding systems for building proteins and other cell structures - that what is "clearly seen" must be accepted "by faith" EVEN thought Heb 11 states clearly that if it is clearly seen IT DOES NOT take faith to accept it.

In Christ,

Bob

[ January 06, 2006, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Scenario 1 - God used atheist Darwinian ideas to "create" life.

The Bible believing Christian goes to heaven and God says "hey why were you so easily snookered by the design you saw in nature into thinking that it SHOWED My genius in designing life? Why didn't you follow the lead of your fellow atheist darwinist faithful? Were you taking My word in Romans 1 in Genesis 1, and in John 1 too seriously or something?"

In which case we will say yes - I guess we really did not see that one coming. Romans 1 seems so clear and your design in nature so compelling, obvious and "clearly seen" we never guessed that it was all just blind chance and your use of carnage, death, exctinction and starvation to "bring Adam from a monkey". We actually thought you STARTED by making us IN THE IMAGE of God! Our bad!

Scenario 2. The atheist darwinians are wrong. Dead wrong! Wrong in censoring data that favors the Bible. God's word is perfectly reliable. God's attributes are CLEARLY SEEN IN nature ITSELF just like Romans 1 says and they are CLEARLY SEEN by UNBELIEVERS just like Romans 1 points out!

God will say to the atheist-wannabe Darwinians that happen to make it, "Hey couldn't you see those things that were CLEARLY SEEN even by the pagans IN nature itself! I put it right there in living double-helix for you! And then I gave you that huge HINT in Romans 1 that it is CLEARLY SEEN! And then I gave you my RELIABLE Word in Gen 1-2:3. How in the world did you miss that?"

To which our atheist wannabe's will respond -- "But your word was so flawed and the atheists did such a good job of story telling and poking fun of us. We just couldn't take it!"

To which God will say - "Of course! Why didn't I think of that. I never noticed just how flawed my Word is and how GOOD those atheist darwinian stories really are if you are feeling picked on by the majority of unbelievers in the field of science. Clearly you did the right thing to deny what you were seeing IN nature and to deny My Word AND to attack even your fellow Christian evolutionists like Behe who could not go to such extremes with you!... NOT!"

 

I gotta tell you - "that" is so obvious - it just never gets old!

 

Wrong. That is a "leap" that the atheists have tried to argue - but it never works as a substitute for logic and reason.

It is not "science" to suppose that the Christmas angels that were in my front yard over Christmas were merely "an extremely UNLIKELY sequence of chemical interactions"!

We can not simply go to the lab and "observe" that this "Christmas angels do not FORM on their own' and walk away saying "SEE I told you it was UNLIKELY -- but this is real science to BELIEVE it happened as an unlikely sequence ANYWAY!!".

It is that kind of nonsensical "faith" That you try to substitute as "science" - it is at best - pseudoscience totally bogus in the lab!!

My question is why toss out reason AND science AND basic forms of logic to claim that the complex living engines complete with encoding, decoding and error-correction systems found in nature "are MERELY a sequence of UNLIKELY chemical events!!".

Each time you circle back on your own argument as you get stumped by the point that these complexities "ARE CLEARLY SEEN IN NATURE" even by pagans -- you simply show a slavish devotion to the atheist POV that NEEDS to ignore what is "CLEARLY SEEN IN NATURE EVEN by pagan UNBELIEVERS"!

Why not deal with the point that you keep stumbling at - only to repeat your prior argument that you "need" to recast what is "CLEARLY SEEN IN NATURE" as "faith" of the pagan??

Why do you take such wild nonsequiters as your "preferred solution" when in truth their only appeal is to the atheist evolutionist! The atheist is the only one that "NEEDS" to ignore what is "CLEARLY SEEN IN NATURE" even by pagans - let alone Christians! I fully understand their "shortcircuit" when they get to this point.

But why you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Let's try another approach to see if we can wean you from your Atheist moorings.

You "say" that as a Christian evolutionist you DO SEE ID IN nature just as Behe claims. Let's explore that for a second.

Lets take a single living cell with the DNA encoding and decoding, translation and error-correcting systems. Talk to me about how you see that as something that came about as something OTHER than "an extermely unlikely yet fortuitous sequence of chemical reactions NOT reproducible in the Lab".

Tell me about the "Intelligence" you claim to SEE in that "Design". Is there some statement in the Bible that says "by faith we believe that anytime we find a complex system of Encoding, decoding information complete with error correcting systems built in we will prefer to think of that as taking some serious planning to put together REATHER than merely expecting it naturally as the result of rocks falling in mud".

And after stating how it is that you are able to see this obvious ID fact in that very complex and unreproducible system - then explain how the unbelieving pagan is coming to your same conclusion.


Tell me how you arrvied at the conclusion that these complex systems reveal thinking/planning going into their design as you failed day after day to see science building such a complex sytem in the lab no matter how hard science tries to do it artificially (let alone naturally assembling itself)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Of course this "would" mean that you would be backing up your own claim to BELIEVE this point. (hahaha yeah - like that wild claim of yours had a ghost of a chance of being true).

But anything that "weans you from atheism" seems to displease more than interest you Paul. Notice your objective, open minded, Romans 1 rejecting mindset when it comes to dumping atheism??

Quite the contrary. You seem to be making every effort to "exactly fulfill" my every expectation in your case. Why try so hard to make me look good??

I say get up a little spunk and show your own claim had an ounce of truth to it!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

yawwwwn - rabbit trail "again"

The claim for Intelligent Design that you "claimed to believe" does not say it knows HOW God did something.

Pay attention to that thing you "claimed" to believe please.

So back to the point - the evolution embracing view of Intelligent design (you know - the view of Christian evolutionists like Behe) does not say anything about HOW the intelligent work was put together RATHER it simply NOTES that it that this stuff does not just fall out of Rock-dropping in Mud!

I am sorry you think God lied to us when He said "FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD CREATED the heavens and the earth the SEA and ALL that is in them" - but you need not let that defection on your part stop you from admitting what even the pagans admit to in Romans 1.

That the intelligence of God - HIS ATTRIBUTES - are "CLEARLY SEEN" in what has been made!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The atheist believer in Darwinian evolutionism responds to this by saying –

(Of course the blind believer in atheist Darwinian evolutionism must also claim that “NO” the Holy Spirit does NOT “Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” so we “know” they are typically being “less than straightforward” about what they actually DO perceive in the world around them!!)

Now the “odd thing” is that so-called Christian evolutionists that reject the Christian evolutionist claims about ID “Intelligent Design” are themselves fully aligned to these Atheist Darwinian objections to Romans 1!!

Here is the Bible - boldly denied by Christian Evolutionists who reject ID – and we see that God’s Word is claiming that these so-called Christian believers in evolutionism ( like their atheist Darwinian brethren) are being less than truthful in what they “Claim” they can see in nature the things “clearly seen” (what the Americans called “Self evident”).

 

Romans one says God's Divine attributes (in fact all that is known about God which includes the fact that "he is infinitely wise") is "CLEARLY SEEN" in "what has been made".

The true believer in the atheist's concept of darwinian evolutionism must turn "clearly seen" into "dimly seen" and must translate "Divine attributes" into "anything BUT - the fact that God is actually intelligent".

How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wrong - "again".

God SAID that "ALL that is known about God" and SPECIFICALLY His "divine attributes" (which INCLUDES the fact that He is all wise and infinitely intelligenct) are "CLEARLY SEEN" in "What has been made".

You then apply atheist darwinian doctrines to "What has been seen" claiming as the ATheists do that "NONE of what God says can be clearly Seen IN what has been made - IS actually SEEN in what has been made!!". Then you take your own idea of inserting these atheist views into the text as "a supposed contraction that I must make"!!!

How contrived sir!

Try something that holds water. (Of course that would mean dumping atheist darwininan doctrines of evolutionism -- but that is another story).

In Christ,

Bob