christmas has NOTHING to do with the Jesus of the Bible

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by wopik, Dec 6, 2005.

  1. wopik

    wopik
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    Have you ever thought that MAYBE christmas has NOTHING to do with the Jesus of the Bible? Did you know Christmas originated from the Babylonian pagan celebration of the winter solstice (Birthday of the sungod-Baal).


    History tells us that It started with Nimrod and the tower of of babel (Genesis 11), which not only stood for man's unity and rebellion against God (Nimrod means - he rebelled), but it was also a place of worship.

    The pagans used the high places to worship the host of heaven, as in the moon, stars, planets, and their chief god the sun (2nd Chronicles 33:3+Deut. 17:3).


    The winter solstice, the shortest day of the year, (when the pagans believed the sun god "Baal" received his rebirth because the days started becoming longer) was the holiest of all the pagan holidays.


    Nimrod, the ruler of babel (later called Babylon, Genesis 10:9-10), died at an early age, so his wife made up a lie, to keep his memory alive.

    She told that Nimrod had became a spiritual being, Baal the sun god. She said, only by praying through her could you reach Nimrod.

    She called herself the Queen of Heaven. (Jeremiah 7:19) She said that the sign Nimrod left for her was a full grown evergreen tree, which represented his eternal life. The custom became to set up the evergreen tree in your home, decorate it with shiny ornaments, and wait for Nimrod to leave presents under it, they did this on Nimrod's birthday, which coincided with the winter solstice, the pagan holy day, DECEMBER 25.
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Evidence please?
     
  3. wopik

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    4000 years of christmas - a book:

    This modern holiday classic carries the reader around the globe and through the millennia. Beginning 2,000 years before Christ, it explains traditions like exchanging gifts for 12 days (it started in Babylon), decking the halls (part of the Roman Saturnalia festival), and believing in Saint Nick.


    4000 Years of Christmas

    (edited to save band width

    [ December 09, 2005, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
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    Do you have reasons to believe that the source is trustworthy?
     
  5. wopik

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    people always celebrated the sun-gods' birthdays at the winter solstice. the shortest day of the year----the sun at its weakest and lowest point in the sky----and then the days start getting longer minute by minute after that.


    http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
     
  6. Hope of Glory

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    There are instances in which a priest had to get the people off the steps to come inside because they were still worshipping the sun god, "just in case". Same day.
     
  7. Johnv

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    It does in my house. I define my customs and celebrations. No one else. So it is with all.
     
  8. wopik

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  9. gb93433

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    I would think non-Christians would love to know that just so they could do away with the Jesus story about salvation.
     
  10. wopik

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    Jesus and the story of salvation is REAL.


    I just wish we didn't have to wrap it up in re-used pagan holidays.

    The Christian Apostles didn't observe Jesus' birth. They were called Christians for the first time in Antioch.
     
  11. Johnv

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    The word used was "Christianos". It meant "follower of the anointed one", but has been transliterated "Christian" in the English.

    The first appearance of the word is in Acts 26:28, when Agrippa asks Paul "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a follower of the one who is anointed?" (meaning, "persuade me to be a Christian")
     
  12. gb93433

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    Christians was a name given them by the pagans.

    It does not bother me to use Sunday through Saturday even though they are pagan names. Life is filled with all kinds of things I don't really like. There have been those in America who have tried to start towns and rid themselves of such things only to find out they began fighting with each other.

    If those things bother you, why do you buy gas? Most of the gas comes from Muslim countries. By buying gas you are supporting Muslims.

    The point is that we can spend so much time worrying about everybody and everything else and have little or no care for the salvation of people. When was the last time you heard of a Christian politician such as Dobson, Falwell and Robertson using their money to train people to disciple others and do evangelism. Do you have any idea how much their broadcasts cost just so they can broadcast their brand of propaganda to the Christians who listen to them?
     
  13. Johnv

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    I agree with your post, but as a point of fact, most of our gas does not come from Muslim Countries. Most of our gas, I believe about 75% comes from other foreign and domestic sources, such as Venezuela, Alaska, Texas, etc.
     
  14. wopik

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    http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/xmasintr.htm --- christmas


    There was some dispute about the proper date of the birth of Christ and not everyone agrees even to this day. It was not until A.D. 350, that December 25 was declared the official date for celebrating Christmas by Pope Julius I.

    When the fathers of the church decided to settle upon a date to celebrate the event, they wisely chose the day of the winter solstice, since it coincided with some rival religions' celebrations and the rebirth of the sun (see Year of the Sun Calendar), symbolized by bon-fires and yule logs.


    December 25 was a festival long before the conversion of the Germanic peoples to Christianity, it seemed fitting that the time of their winter festival would also be the time to celebrate the birth of Christ. The darkness that had frightened and threatened to defeat the ancient pagans, was forever defeated by the coming of Christ.
     
  15. bmerr

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    wopik,

    bmerr here. I'm glad you brought this up. You are correct. There is no authorization in the NT for Christians to celebrate the birth of Christ. To make Christmas a religious holiday is to deviate from the pattern of worship given in the NT. Same with "Easter".

    From what I've read, alot of pagan religious stuff flloded into the church after Constantine declared Christianity to be the official state religion of the Roman Empire. Multitudes of unconverted heathen flooded into the church, due to the political and social advantages "Christianity" now offered.

    With them came numerous pagan traditions, which the already apostate church of Rome dealt with by "assimilating" them into the bastardized form of Christianity it had fallen to.

    With the fall of the Roman Empire, and the subsequent rise of the RCC, these pagan traditions influenced millions of people who were under the boot of the papacy.

    Though the Reformation made great strides in ridding people from the stain of the RCC, several of the old pagan traditions hang on even today, under the guise of "Christian Holidays".

    A simple return to the NT as the sole authority would clear all of that stuff up.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  16. John of Japan

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    And then we should drop Easter, too (as you say--it would be hypocritical not to), and Sunday Schools and Christian schools and publishing Christian books and writing commentaries and using Bible software and, and, and, 'cause none of them are in the Bible either!!

    bmerr, please learn to distinguish between extrabiblical and unbiblical. There is a huge difference. As for me, I will continue to honor and praise the Lord Jesus Christ on Christmas with Luke 2 and Matthew 1 and songs about Him and evangelistic efforts and tracts about Him and a worship service about Him and preaching a message about His birth and giving presents in His name--and all of these ARE commanded in Scripture. :cool:
     
  17. Watchman

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    wopik, you are right-on. Also disturbing is the trees. Almost anywhere in the Old Testament that trees are mentioned with people it involves some sort of pagan worship.
    That said, does the Christian have some liberty here? That too is a good point.
    "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men."
    "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us of all sin."
    "One observeth the day, another observeth not the day."
    In short, what if we were not supposed to have observed this day, or we have done some things we should not have, did we have the intention of honoring the Lord Jesus, out of love for Him?
    I certainly do not think that this is a matter to persecute a Christian brother or sister for.
     
  18. bmerr

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    Watchman, John of Japan,

    bmerr here. We celebrate Christmas, we just don't make a religious holiday out of it. It's a human tradition, and we have a time of family, friends, and gifts.

    But when the ACLU (American Communist Lawyers Union) starts crying about nativity scenes, and folks saying "Merry Christmas", etc, I don't get all worked up about it.

    And no, I wouldn't withhold fellowship with a brother if they chose not to observe it at all.

    But when people make a big "Christian" holiday out of it, they go beyond what is written, and that's unBiblical. Same with "Easter".

    The only memorial commanded in the NT is the Lord's Supper, by which we do shew the Lord's death till he come (1 Cor 11:26). This is to be observed each Lord's day (Acts 20:7).

    Concerning Christian books, schools, commentaries, etc., these are expedient ways of committing the things we have learned to faithful men, who will be able to teach them to others also (2 Tim 2:2). They are certainly authorized by the NT, provided they teach the truth.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  19. Claudia_T

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    Seventh Day Adventist view on Christmas

    I dont know what the stance is on Christmas in the Baptist denomination or in other denominations, except I think the Jehovah's Witnesses dont celebrate Christmas.

    But anyway I am a Seventh Day Adventist and since this is a section of the forum about other denominations, I will tell you what the historic SDA viewpoint of Christmas is. These are the things that it tells us in the Spirit of Prophecy writings that I will be telling you....

    You see, when it comes to the 7th Day Sabbath, God commanded us to keep the day holy as a day to remember Him in a special way as our Creator.

    However, God never mentioned any day on which the birth of Christ was to be celebrated. And so, is there any sin in celebrating the birth of Christ? NO... well then why would we go out of our way NOT to celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th? Is this day of the year Satan's day? NO... it is a day God made, just like all the others. And so what is the sin in remembering and celebrating the birth of Christ on December 25th or any other day for that matter?

    Is there any real biblical reason why we ought to go completely out of our way to ignore the day?

    So why not use this day to honor and glorify God? Since the world is on that day having their minds upon the subject of Christmas when all of the rest of the time they never think of religious subjects, why not take this as a opportunity to tell them the story of Jesus and His birth and the plan of redemption?

    And why not make gifts for our family and friends that are not self-centered? After all in the Christmas story the people brought their gifts to the baby Jesus, didnt they? Why not use this time to give special gifts to help spread the gospel, and if you give presents to others why not give them religious books that will help them in their spiritual walk with God? Why not take this day and dedicate it to God instead of spending loads of money on needless candies and toys and indulgences?

    Why not make it a special time of drawing the minds of the children to the story of the Birth of Christ? Provide something to be read during these long winter evenings.

    Think of God's gift to a sinful world. Depart from the customs and practices of this degenerate age. Depart from worldly traditions.

    I hate to say this about the Jehovah's Witnesses but why go out of your way to appear different than everyone else? When there isnt any biblical reason to. Instead of taking a stand on the Sabbath, which is biblical... some instead will take something that really doesnt matter and mountain out of a molehill. Christians need to learn how to "choose their battles" wisely.


    MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

    -----------

    -Ellen White, The Adventist Home, page 477
    Chapter Title: Christmas
    "Christmas as a Holiday.--"Christmas is coming," is the note that is sounded throughout our world from east to west and from north to south. With youth, those of mature age, and even the aged, it is a period of general rejoicing, of great gladness. But what is Christmas, that it should demand so much attention? . . .

    The twenty-fifth of December is supposed to be the day of the birth of Jesus Christ, and its observance has become customary and popular. But yet there is no certainty that we are keeping the veritable day of our Saviour's birth. History gives us no certain assurance of this. The Bible does not give us the precise time. Had the Lord deemed this knowledge essential to our salvation, He would have spoken through His prophets and apostles, that we might know all about the matter.

    The Day Not to Be Ignored.--As the twenty-fifth of December is observed to commemorate the birth of Christ, as the children have been instructed by precept and example that this was indeed a day of gladness and rejoicing, you will find it a difficult matter to pass over this period without giving it some attention. It can be made to serve a very good purpose.

    ...The desire for amusement, instead of being quenched and arbitrarily ruled down, should be controlled and directed by painstaking effort upon the part of the parents. Their desire to make gifts may be turned into pure and holy channels and made to result in good to our fellow men by supplying the treasury in the great, grand work for which Christ came into our world. Self-denial and self-sacrifice marked His course of action. Let it mark ours who profess to love Jesus because in Him is centered our hope of eternal life.


    The Interchange of Gifts as Tokens of Affection.-- The holiday season is fast approaching with its interchange of gifts, and old and young are intently studying what they can bestow upon their friends as a token of affectionate remembrance. It is pleasant to receive a gift, however small, from those we love. It is an assurance that we are not forgotten, and seems to bind us to them a little closer. . . . It is right to bestow upon one another tokens of love and remembrance if we do not in this forget God, our best friend. We should make our gifts such as will prove a real benefit to the receiver. I would recommend such books as will be an aid in understanding the word of God or that will increase our love for its precepts. Provide something to be read during these long winter evenings.

    Christmas--a Time to Honor God.--By the world the holidays are spent in frivolity and extravagance, gluttony and display. . . . Thousands of dollars will be worse than thrown away upon the coming Christmas and New Year's in needless indulgences. But it is our privilege to depart from the customs and practices of this degenerate age; and instead of expending means merely for the gratification of the appetite or for needless ornaments or articles of clothing, we may make the coming holidays an occasion in which to honor and glorify God. "


    Claudia
     
  20. Claudia_T

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    I just wanted to add something to my last message.

    This thing against Christmas also reminds me of how the Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to salute the flag, etc... You know, the Bible says that God ordained earthly Governments and we are to respect them. But it is when someone tries to force us to do something contrary to Gods Word that we ought to be willing to take a stand. "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men" Acts:5:29.

    The Roman Catholic Church instituted the Sunday Sabbath and changed the Law of God. The Bible Prophecies tell us the time will come when the Catholic Church, along with the Government and Apostate Protestantism will join together and be as "one mind" and try to force us to do the will of the Pope instead of the will of God. Revelation 14:6-12 tells us that God will pour out His wrath upon those who refuse to keep His commandments. THIS is what we need to be concerned about and this is where we need to take a stand.

    THIS is when we need to stand up against the Government and not until then.


    ...and this Christmas issue is a non-issue, a side issue ,,,when God never told us when the birth of Jesus occurred. Same with Easter and the resurrection of Christ. We can just as well use that day to glorify God, and think about the resurrection of Christ as well as any other day. It does not matter if the pagans celebrate it differently, that day or Christmas day.


    Claudia
     

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