Christology

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ByGracethroughFaith, Sep 18, 2007.

  1. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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  2. ByGracethroughFaith

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    I wished you wouldn’t even try to refute this, everyone I know of that has ever attempted to refute this fact has been a proven heretic, and knows nothing of the person of Christ.

    God the Father raised Christ from the dead, likewise so did God the Son, and likewise so did God the Holy Spirit. Make no mistake about it, the resurrection of Christ is one of the operations of all three persons of the Trinity.

    To claim this is a misunderstanding of what happens at death, and an argument of the JW’s I might add. Physical death is merely the separation of body from spirit and soul, it is not non-existence of spirit and soul. God the Son also raised Christ from the dead, just as He said He would.

    John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

    It is the Holy Spirit that indwells believers, not God the Father. So, likewise it is God the Holy Spirit that dwelleth in the believer that raised Christ from the dead, just as it is recorded here.

    Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Those who deny either Christ’s person or His work WILL go to hell. To have any mistake on these matters means one does not have the Spirit of truth testifying of Christ in them. Those without the Spirit of Christ are unsaved.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


    There can be no confusion about either the doctrine of the Trinity or the person and work of Christ, in those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. The job of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Christ for a proper understanding of Him, and to imply that the Holy Spirit is testifying in a false manner about Christ is utter blasphemy.

    Back to my earlier statement:
    A misunderstanding at either the person or work of Christ means that one is without the Holy Spirit, and does not belong to Christ.

    Now, with all that being said, I am not here to shout out proclamations of damnation, I am here to preach Christ unto salvation. Eliyahu, it is now up to you, do you want to continue to deny the person and the work of Christ by denying His own word stating He will raise His body, or will you turn from this heresy and receive Christ in ALL His majesty?


    BGTF
     
  3. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    BGTF,

    I just laughed at your post awhile!
    It is not helpful to the readers if they don't see the whole argument on this issue. I think you started this argument from the beginning with the notion that you have made a big discovery of litmus paper to test the salvation. Therefore I would post the previous post of mine here:



    Both can be correct, either God the Father or the Trinity. What you illustrated can be refuted as follows:

    1) Jesus meant JN 2 by obeying Himself to His Father, and thereby, He believed that His Father will raise Him up. So, He didn't mean the resurrection by Himself but by the Father.
    If Anyone is in a position to Raise himself from the dead, then he was no longer dead. He should have been alive always in order to raise himself from the dead. Therefore it is contradictory, denying the complete death of Jesus.

    2) Romans 8:11 - You misunderstood quite a lot about this verse.
    You better read the Greek Text to avoid the misinterpretation.

    Ει δε το Πνευμα του εγειραντοσ Ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει ( there is a little variance among texts here, but it doesn't affect my point)

    Re-translation:
    If the Spirit of the person who raised Jesus out of the Dead dwells in (you)
    The Greek word for "the person who raised" (Jesus from the Dead) is one word. That means the God the Father who raised Jesus. Again this means The Spirit of the God the Father who raised Jesus out of the Dead.
    Therefore this verse is talking that God the Father raised Jesus.

    3) The word ηγερθη in Luke 24:6
    But He is risen : this word has been used 18 times as the Passive mood in NT. This means that He was raised by someone else.
    We can notice the word has been used always in passive mood. It cannot be said that Jesus raised Himself, but we believe Jesus laid down Himself unto death, even the death at the Cross, in absolute obedience to God the Father. The Son believed in His Father.
    The most difficult job for the God in Tri-unity who cannot die was to die at the Cross by the hands of His creatures. That Job, the most difficult job was done by His beloved Son.
    And the job of rasing Him from the Dead was done by His Father.
    The Holy Spirit is to witness what the Son has done at the Cross. Before that the Holy Spirit gave birth to the Son in the womb of Mary. Then the job of taking care of the Church is done by the Holy Spirit so that the Truth of Cross may be preached to the people and accepted by the believers under the headship of Jesus Christ.

    However one can hardly separate the Trinity of Godheads for each job etc. and I can agree that Trinity work in all the operation of the universe and in the work of Redemption, though the job was done specifically for each step.

    4) Now in your theology, you may be saying that Albigenes were wrong and heretics because they didn't believe according to your theology, and you may be condemning me that I should go to the hell because I don't believe in the same as you believe about who has raised Jesus Christ from the dead.
    But do I have to agree with you that if anyone doesn't know how the Trinity worked together, exactly, then she or he should go to the Hell?
    No, Sir!

    In your Bible it may be written this way:

    The Robber at the Cross said to Jesus " Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdom" Luke 23:42
    43 Jesus said to him " Do you know Trinity of Godheads? and that the Holy Spirit works in me?" Robber said, " NO, Sir" Jesus said " then you should go to the Hell !"
    According to BGTF Bible, which is also modified for PTR.

    BGTF,

    Read my post in the other thread written about Albigenes. They were the victims by the false accusations made by RCC. You will see them in the Heaven, but you will be ashamed about your false accusation and wrongful judgment on them. I won't be ashamed about my assessment on them on that Day.
     
    #3 Eliyahu, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2007
  4. Eliyahu

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    BGTF,

    1. What you are saying have some problems.
    If Jesus raised Himself from the dead, then He was already raised ! Because the Dead means He is not moving or cannot do anything.
    If Jesus raised His Body for Himself, then He was not dead at the time when He raised His body.

    2. I already pointed out your error in understanding Romans 8:11

    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

    - Him that raised Jesus means God the Father.

    - he that raised up Christ is God the Father in that sentence as well.

    Therefore your claim that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus cannot be derived from Romans 8:11, though I am not sure we can find such from other verses.
    Ask any Greek specialist if my interpretation is correct or not.

    3. You are still saying that anyone who doesn't know properly Trinity should go to the Hell because that person doesn't know about the spirit, which means that he or she doesn't have the spirit.
    I have found nowhere in the Bible that the ignorance about the Trinity means the absence of the Spirit of Christ.
    I am glad that you won't be the Judge on the Day of the Great Judgment.
    I am glad that many Believers will go to the Heaven despite their lack of knowledge about the Trinity.

    4. I hope you are not saying that Jesus didn't die completely but only the human soul of his died and could still work thru the Spirit.
    I believe that Jesus died completely, though He was in the Paradise, but not alive in the realm of this world. Jesus didn't faint, but died and we ourselved died in Him too.
     
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    From a linguistic standpoint, I see no reason to disagree with your understanding of the Greek text on Rom 8:11 and Luke 24:6.
     
  6. Eliyahu

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    BGTF, you often modify the Bible and I find BGTF Bible is quite strange in terms of PTR, in terms of Salvation:

    Romans 10
    9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    BGTF,

    Don't misunderstand that I hold Easy-Believeism which is very much wrong and misleading the millions of people.
    They must confess their faith sincerely and wholeheartedly. However, we should not impose anything other than Believing in the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.
    Again, Easy Believeism only by mouth doesn't bring the Salvation.
    But there is no other condition than the Believe in the Blood of Jesus.
     
  7. ByGracethroughFaith

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    That's too bad, I had hoped for better, but have learned to expect that type of response.


    BGTF
     
  8. ByGracethroughFaith

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    I realize that you don't hold easy believism, but you do believe in a different Jesus than the one revealed in scripture.

    John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up... he spake of the temple of his body.

    Do you think He is a liar now too?

    BGTF
     
  9. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    TC, perhaps it is easier to see the operation of the Holy Spirit in the resurrection of Christ in this verse.

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


    BGTF
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1. quickened "MADE ALIVE by the Spirit".

    2. I would not judge anyone as "not going to heaven" because they fail to get some fine point on the Trinity and the incarnation - understanding such infinite topics to a certain depth is not the barrier for salvation. I wonder how much of it John the baptizer understood!!

    having said that - I would differ with this statement below

    Jesus was not devoid of being God - he consciously chose NOT to use His God power as we see in Matt 4 temptation to turn stone into bread - but He HAD it.

    For that reason I don't know that we should try to limit Christ in death (infinite God and also man) to the extent that we would claim that He had no more immortal presence in death than mortal man. Christ had to consciously choose to let himself be killed and to suffer for the sins of the whole world - "I have power to lay it down" and I believe He was making some decision and exercising some power in His own resurrection because He is God "I have power to take it up".

    But WE are not God nor God-men. Satan will not be tempting anyone of us to turn stones into bread.

    None of us will claim in a witnessesing session to unbelievers "before Abraham was I AM".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. Even this verse is not without its translation difficulties, as shown in the numerous renditions.

    2. But theology must win the day every time.
     
  12. ByGracethroughFaith

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    The scriptures are intentionally fraught with many difficulties to the natural mind.

    2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

    Matt 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not ; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


    BGTF
     
  13. Eliyahu

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    BGTF,

    You can say whatever about me. But be careful that you have to be responsible for every bit of words in His presence.

    What is it in that sentence ?

    It is the Temple.
    Jesus said He was going to Raise the Temple by dying himself at the Cross, then resurrecting in three days because He knew that God the Father would raise Him from the Dead.
    What He pointed out about the Temple was that He believed in the Father. He trusted in His Father and believed His Father would raise Him.

    Read here:

    Acts 3:13
    The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

    ACTS 3: 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

    Acts 2: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

    Acts 2: 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses

    Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

    Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

    Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead

    Acts 13:33
    God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    Acts 13:34
    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David

    Acts 13:37
    But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption

    Acts 17:31
    Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

    Ro 4:24
    But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Rom 6:4
    Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Romans 8:11

    But if the Spirit of him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he( God the Father) that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    Romans 10 :9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    1 Cor 6:14
    And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    1 Cor 15:15

    Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

    Gal 1:1
    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

    Eph 1:20
    Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

    Eph 2:
    But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    Col 2:12
    Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    1 Th 1:10
    And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

    1 Pet 1:21
    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.



    Dear BGTF,


    All the above verses tell us that God the Father raised Jesus from the Dead.

    You asked me who raised the Christ from the dead. Then I answered you that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Then you told me I am heretic to go to the hell because I didn't know that the Trinity raised Jesus from the dead.

    Would you say that even Apostle Paul would have gone to the Hell because Paul all the time said God raised Jesus from the dead?

    So, do anyone have to go to the Hell unless they believe in Trinity according to your theology?

    Peter 3:18

    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    YOu brought this verse as an evidence that Jesus was raised by the Holy Spirit.

    YOu just revealed your ignorance in Greek once again. The Spirit in this verse doesn't mean the Holy Spirit. The word is like a dative of the spirit simply. What it meant is that the spirit was the tool or the entrance for the resurrection.

    Let me read the original text for you:

    Θανατωθεσ μεν σαρκι, ζωοποιηθεισ δε πνευματι

    So, the verse can be paraphrased as this

    " died in the flesh but revived in the spirit ( or thru the spirit or at the spirit of Jesus)"
    It doesn't say that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus, Sir.

    You better study the Bible more before you try to argue with another believers, Sir.
     
    #13 Eliyahu, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2007
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. What is the point of your post? What are you suggesting? Are you aware of textual variants? Are you aware of the possibilities of various translations of a verse?

    2. Since man has been doing translations this must be contended with. But I assure you, nothing of the gospel has been diminished. Nothing!
     
    #14 TCGreek, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2007
  15. ByGracethroughFaith

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    The perfect example is Eliyahu. Though it is plain in scripture, he can't see the operation of the Trinity in the resurrection of Christ. He can't see that the Holy Spirit is to testify of Christ so that the believer will have no misunderstanding of either the person or work of Christ, he also claims soul sleep for the dead and other heresies.

    The sad part is that he goes around telling everyone else that they are 'drunk with the wine of the RCC'; while at the same time he does not even understand the most basic of Christian doctrines.

    These doctrines are in scripture right in front of his face, and yet they are well hidden.


    BGTF
     
    #15 ByGracethroughFaith, Sep 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2007
  16. ByGracethroughFaith

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    Very good, you can see the operation of God the Father in the resurrection of Christ from the dead. You will see noted before that I do not deny that the Father did this. What one can't do is deny that the Son or the Holy Spirit did it either. Remember, one indivisible God, manifest in three persons. Jesus Christ is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and God raised Christ from the dead; to deny the work of either in this operation is to deny both the person and the work of Christ, as well as grieve the Holy Spirit.

    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    Who are we to believe on for salvation? God the Father, God the Son, or both?

    Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

    John 9:35
    ...Dost thou believe on the Son of God?


    I never argue with believers on this subject, they are in agreement on it.


    BGTF
     
  17. Eliyahu

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    This verse tells you God the Father raised Jesus.
    You are trying to find out unnecessary argument to prove your faith.
    Jesus never denied that we should believe in God the Father though numerous verses ask us to believe in Jesus.
    You brought your LItmus paper to test the faith of others saying that if anyone doesn't confess that three Godheads raised Jesus from the dead, then she or he will go to the hell as they don't have the Spirit in themselves. Your Litmus paper failed, because even Paul didn't confess that way at all. Show me where Paul said the Holy Spirit raised Jesus or Jesus raised Himself.


    God the Father.

    As if I had not known this.


    You are not honest to confess your mistake in judging the people. Your Litmus Paper was wrong. You condemned the Believers wrongfully, because Apostle Paul and I confessed simply that God raised Jesus from the dead, and therefore such people like Paul and me shoul go to the Hell according to your theology.
    You are far away from many portions of Truth.
     
  18. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith
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    It says ‘God’ raised Jesus, it is you who is adding ‘the Father’. There is one God, and as that one God raised up Christ from the dead, it involved ALL three persons of the Trinity. To believe any less is to deny the Godhead.

    If that is what you consider a sound argument, then you should be able to tell me where the Bible tells us explicitly to deny that the body of Christ was raised by the Son of God?

    There are not three Godheads, there is only one Godhead comprised of three persons. Your language in these matters really exposes your lack of understanding of them.

    This is merely a veiled attempt to remove large portions of scripture, next you will ask where Amos or Matthew said it. One does not need to go to a higher authority than Christ alone on the matter, He established the doctrine when He said “I will raise it up”

    Actually, I am being very honest, if you don’t think so, I will say it again. Those who hold to dualism or other Christological heresies are not saved. When someone is wrong at the person and work of Christ, everything else they believe simply does not matter.

    Time will tell.

    I merely preach the gospel, it is upon hearing it that your own conscience tells you that you are going to hell. I am not happy to hear about that, if I was, then I would just leave you in that condition. It is only because I really and truly care about lost souls, that I try to help them out of the condition you are presently in.

    Maranatha!

    BGTF
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
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    Yes, it is my interpretation. It is clear from the context. Even Jesus would agree with me. When Jesus said, believe on God who sent me, Does it mean that God the Son sent Jesus as well ? You are creating the heretics by your own definition.

    I already told you this. If Jesus raised Himself from the dead, then He was no longer dead. Because the dead man cannot raise the other dead. If anyone can do some miracle, he was no longer dead. In you logic, you are denying that Jesus died completely, and may be you are believing Jesus just fainted, right?

    You could never bring the evidence that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus. You brought Romans 8:11, 1 Peter 3:18, which was wrong due to your lack of knowledge in Greek. You are the person who caused this trouble by inventing a Litmus Paper to judge the salvation of others.

    You are exaggerating a theory from a piece of statement and making it big.
    What He raised it up is the temple by laying down Himself because He believed His Father will raise Him. I repeated this many times. Seeing you cannot read it, hearing you cannot hear it, if you cannot understand it.

    Yes, if anyone believed Dualism as you defined, they may have had a big trouble or had not been saved. If any group didn't believe in the Dualism as per your theology, then you or anyone who condemned them made the false accusation.


    Time runs well and I am very much glad that you won't become the Great Judge on the Day of Great Judgment, but you will be one of the defendants as well.

    I am very much convinced about my salvation since September 1973, and this month is the 34th aniversary of it, and I am very much thankful to my personal savior Jesus Christ who is my physical Savior as well. I believe in the Blood of Jesus Christ shed at the Cross, and His Death at the Cross in my stead, and I believe that I was crucified with Christ and live no longer but Christ lives in me. I am not very much concerned about how we distinguish the Godheads for each work or how we should say Trinity worked together etc. That has not been issues in my life and God helps me in my life all the time, and His Blood testifies my name. Therefore you don't have to worry about my salvation, though I appreciate you for your kindness, Sir.
     
    #19 Eliyahu, Sep 20, 2007
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2007
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    1. While Eliyahu and I have been on opposing sides of several debates, I must agree with his use of the scriptural data to distinguish each member of the Trinity in the resurrection of Christ.

    2. Like the Incarnation, there's much to the Resurrection of Christ that has escaped us and will continue to do so.

    3. But as long as we maintain that there is one God, with three personalities, yet each being fully God, then we have no problem.

    4. For example, when Paul uses God, he usually means the Father, for the evidence of his writings bear this out.

    5. I do not believe "spirit" in 1 Pet 3:18 is referring to the Holy Spirit. Please note the obvious parallelism, which is lost in most versions.
     
    #20 TCGreek, Sep 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2007

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