church employment

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by jonmagee, Dec 18, 2002.

  1. jonmagee

    jonmagee
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    New legislation is being planned by the British Government to make it illegal for churches to only employ Christian staff. By contrast, political parties will be permitted to fire any member of staff who changes their political views, irrespective of whether they have a position that is of a prominent position regarding promoting their political views.

    yours, Jon.
     
  2. Rick Sr.

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    This looks to me to be another atempt to thwart God's business. Why? Why would this government want to even consider this? I think this is ridiculus.
     
  3. rsr

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    Jon, can you provide any more information? Thanks.
     
  4. zyzex

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    I am not familiar with the British government's hand in the churches, but do the churches there recieve any kind of dole from the government?
     
  5. Bartimaeus

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    A Church Corporation in the USA cannot truthfully withhold employment from anyone non-Christian or any other "ism" or "scism". We find "other" precident that is convienient and without liability to deny employment or if necessary fire folks because we know that we must maintain the American Equal-Opportunity Federal and State Policies. So...England is a little slow, we had that a long time ago.

    Thanks -------Bart
     
  6. Bartimaeus

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    By the Way, For what it's worth.......
    According to the Scriptures churches have ministers.
    According to American Business Law church corporations have employees. There is a difference, we've forgotten or gotten carried away in our indifference.

    Thanks -------Bart

    Edited to correct mistakes.

    [ December 18, 2002, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]
     
  7. Johnv

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    Since I'm in the US, I tend to think more "prime directively". In other words, let Britain run itself as it likes.

    We in the US, on the other hand, needn't be concerned about the same thing happening, since a religious organization's right to hire only persons of its own religious beliefs is protected constitutionally.
     
  8. Bartimaeus

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    You are gravely mistaken sir, the Salvation Army already tried to do what you said and by court order had to re-hire a witch. You have no constitutional guarntees, you only have the UCC and other statutes and codes that apply to corporations. There is a difference between a "church" and a church corporation.

    Thanks -------Bart

    [ December 18, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]
     
  9. Johnv

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    The woman in question worked for the Domestic Violence Shelter, a charitable corporation run by the Salvation Army. The Domestic Violence Shelter, though a charitable not-for-profit organization, is not a church.
     
  10. InHim2002

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    what is your source for this claim? because I haven't seen anything on this at all.....
     
  11. rsr

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    Yes, John, which is why Bush's funding for faith-based organizations is going down the wrong road.
     
  12. Johnv

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    I don't have a problem with Bush's faith-based funding initiative, since taking the money is voluntary, not mandatory. I would, however, have a problem with churches themselves (instead of charities they run) taking the money as though they had a right to it.

    Any charity that wants a piece of that pie is welcome to it, so long as they understand what comes along with it.

    But I suppose that whole thing could be a separate thread in itself.
     
  13. Bartimaeus

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    When the pastor of the WHATEVER NAME Baptist Church goes down to the local Secretary of States office in your state and files the church as a Charitable Not-for-Profit Corporation...... are we talking about the same thing or did I miss something?

    Secondly...glad you brought it up, this puts the Blood Bought Church of the Lord Jesus Christ in the same earthly catagory as the ....let's see:
    1) The local humane society
    2) The Elks, Moose, Lions, and all the other lodges.
    3) Planned Parenthood
    4) The local Wiccan Church

    Thanks ------Bart
     
  14. Johnv

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    Example:

    Thomas Road Baptist Church is a church.
    The Moral Majority was not; it was a not-for-profit charitable organization.

    By default, a Baptist church, wiccan church, buddhist temple, etc, etc, etc, are tax exempt, and are not required to file (though most do) for tax exempt status. Charitable organizations, like church-run food kitchens, even if owned or run by a church, are not considered churches, and must file for tax exempt status, and are not extended the same first amendment rights as a church.

    [ December 19, 2002, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
  15. Bartimaeus

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    Johnv,

    The first thing I want to do is apologize. I am very sorry for sounding off and being curt. There is no excuse for me posting the last post in the manner in which I did and I ask you to forgive me. The most important thing for all of us to do is to walk in truth and that is what I wish. The worse thing a person could do is to be correct about something and act like an idiot and no one listen.

    You are right the Thomas Road Baptist Church was not a corporation. Up until recently I believe Virginia is the only state in the Union that strictly prohibited churches from filing for not-for-profit benefits by law. I believe that was just recently repealed. But, let me say further, Thomas Road Baptist operated as an Unincorporated Association which by law was not guarnteed Constitutional rights. The Federal Prosecutor in the Indianapolis Baptist Temple case prosecuted his case on this position.

    If I can restate my position: churches that do file (whether required or not) for incoporation status are by nature and creation lawfully required to abide by State and Federal Equal Opportunity Policies and procedure.

    Our church may not be the same as the local humane society but, if I go down to the Secretary of STate's office and file the same paperwork for my church, Then.....I must abide by the laws that have jurisdiction over incorporations. Do you see my point?
    I hope so.

    Thanks ------Bart
     
  16. Bartimaeus

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    Johnv comeback, please comeback

    Thanks -------Bart
     
  17. Johnv

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    Oh man, I stay off the board for a few hours to wrap presents... uh... i mean... help santa wrap presents... and look what happens :D

    No need to apologize, though it's appreciated.

    I'm not familiar with the Virginia law. But in CA, places of worship are not required to file for tax exempt status. While not required to, they are allowed to. Most do to guarantee their status. Freguently, there are court cases involving unincorporated organizations that say "church" on the shingle, but are clearly not operating like houses of worship according to IRS regulations. So they either lose their tax exempt status, or file for a non-church type of not-for-profit organization. Many churches in this area also operate other charitable ventures. For example, there's a Salvation Army Thrift Store near here. Also, most hospitals around here are church run. Children's Hospital of Orange County, one of the best in the nation, is run by the Sisters of St Joseph of Orange (Roman Catholic). Even my bank is church-run: the Evengelical Christian Credit Union.

    I did a little digging and found that, while these charities cannot discriminate in hiring practices, they can require that the employees uphold the principles of the ministries. So if I decided I wanted to work for Rev Falwell's Old Time Gospel Hour TV ministry, I could be a Methodist or Presbyyterian, but I had to vow to uphold Baptist principles of Thomas Road Baptist Church (the parent company) during the course of my employment.

    Whew! Okay, have I talked your ear off yet??
     

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