Church of Christ Debate

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by ShotGunWillie, Apr 16, 2008.

  1. ShotGunWillie

    ShotGunWillie
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    I am trying to think of scriptures and my mind when blank, but I know of several, for instance when Christ mentions being baptized and born again, but you MUST be born again to enter in unto the Kingdom of Heaven.

    What else supports the symbolic side of baptism and opposes it as a means of salvation. I have others, that I have thought of, but I figured we can brain storm together.

    what I have is, in Corithians I believe Paul states that God did not send him to baptize. The theif on the cross. Then you have the whole works issue.

    Little help please....
     
  2. Amy.G

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    Act 10:47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
     
  3. exscentric

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    Mark 16.15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    Note that now and then one will tell you that this passage is not in a lot of manuscripts.

    Acts 2.38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent , and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    This one you will run into - baptism seems to be a part of salvation.
     
  4. Zenas

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    Acts 22:16: "'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'"

    1 Peter 3:21: "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Acts 19:3-6: "And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
    4Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying."

    Colossians 2:11-12: "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
    12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
     
  5. Humblesmith

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    The main thrust of Galatians is that people are not required to mix works in with faith to get salvation. Paul uses the strongest words possible to emphasize this.

    Plus, Paul spends a whole chapter in Romans pointing out that our salvation is connected with Abraham, who "believed God and was accounted for righteousness." The point Paul makes is that Abraham belived and was saved before the law was given, even before the commandment to be circumcised, and even before Abraham did anything to obey.

    The CoC's emphasis is that we must obey in baptism before we are saved. This goes against the whole of Galatians and the clear teachings of the entire chapter in Romans that speaks of Abraham.
     
  6. ShotGunWillie

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    I need some help finding in scripture the portion of when Christ states that you must be believe and be baptist, but in order to get into the kingdom of heaven you must believe. Something like that, I can't find it. Help me.
     
  7. Palatka51

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    John 3:4&5
    4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    My MIL's family is Church of Christ and I get these questions as well. This verse is always thrown at me. The water being baptism.
     
  8. David Lamb

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    I think you will search in vain for a passage in Scripture where Christ says you must be baptist. (If there were one, that would make the "Other Denominations" forum redundant). :laugh:
     
  9. lbaker

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    I think we have made a mistake in separating baptism from conversion, and in making it a "work". I can't think of any passages that define baptism as a work, and there are plenty that associate it with conversion. Of course the bottom line is that Jesus saves, at whatever point in our walk He chooses to do it, in response to our faith.
     
  10. gb93433

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    Historically in the early church baptism was a public proof of naming Christ as Lord. When one was baptized and named Christ as Lord they could have lost their life if the emperor had chosen to have that person executed. When a person named Christ as Lord it meant they renounced the emperor as lord. Baptism was more than a dunk in the water.
     
    #10 gb93433, Apr 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2008
  11. nunatak

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    Not only that, but the first command to be baptized "in Jesus name" came after Christ's crucifixion. I imagine, but don't know w/o a full study of the text, that some of the same crowd who called for Christ's crucifiixion were also some of the same ones who asked Peter, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Notice they did not ask, what must we do to be saved. That is because Peter had already told them in Acts 2:21, whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved, from Joel. Thus by the time they got to verse 37, they ALREADY believed. To make baptism a work in verse 38, "be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins," totally destroys the message of salvation by grace Peter had just preached. So how you translate the greek word "for" is very important. What Peter demanded from his JEWISH audience on the day of Pentecost would have been an afront to any self respecting Jew who followed the Law, like Saul who became Paul. But that is what faith demanded, a WORK for the new believer. Not a work to EARN salvation, but a public confession, a "calling on the name of the Lord." And we know that w/o this kind of work, faith is dead.
     
  12. annsni

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    Since this is speaking of being "born again", wouldn't the idea of being born "of water and of the Spirit" restate the being born of your mother (and the waters of birth) and being born of the Spirit as in new birth? I don't see this as being baptism because it comes before in the sentence - as if you can be baptized THEN get the Holy Spirit (but then again, if they believe that you must be baptized to be saved, then this would make sense to them). But my understanding has always been - even when I read the passage as a child - that this was reflective of a regular physical birth and a spiritual birth.
     
  13. Amy.G

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    I think "born of water" is a reference back to Ez. 36:25-28 which speaks of being "cleansed" of sin in a purification process done by God. Water is the symbol for that. It doesn't mean literal water.
    If it meant birth water, then everyone born would be saved.
    If it meant baptismal water, then we are saved by baptism.

    It must mean the cleansing God does. The living water that Christ offers is the same thing.
     
  14. TCGreek

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    Amen! Amen! Amen!

    I wish I can improve on this, but I can't.
     
    #14 TCGreek, Apr 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2008
  15. Amy.G

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    I just thought of something else that might connect with this verse. Tell me what you think, TC.

    When Jesus washed the disciples' feet, He said "you are clean, but not all of you". I've always taken this to mean that He was saying they were saved. Now that I think about it, maybe He was referring to what He told Nicodemus about being born of water (being cleansed from sin - clean).
     
  16. TCGreek

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    Well, later he said that they were clean because of the word he had spoken to them (John 15:3).

    I take it as a reference to those who truly belong to him.

    Perhaps there's some echoing of John 3, and keeping in mind, that we are purified and born anew through the word of truth (Jas 1:18; 1 Pet 1:22, 23).
     
    #16 TCGreek, Apr 17, 2008
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  17. Amy.G

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    Thanks. Isn't it wonderful how God's word is like threads in a tapestry? If you pull one thread it connects to another and another and another......



    :godisgood:
     
  18. TCGreek

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    It seems like Jesus expected Nicodemus, a teacher of Israel, to get his use of "born of water and the Spirit" concept (John 3:9, 10).
     
  19. saved and sure

    saved and sure
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    Well said and I wonder how many of us would be baptized if our life was in peril as was the case centuries ago?

    This subject has been argued over and over and yet there are still those who believe water baptism is necessary for salvation.
     
  20. lbaker

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    And there are still those who believe that water baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation. The answer is somewhere in the middle, I think.
     

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