church of Christ

Really? Where does it say `unless thou art able to confess Lord Jesus with thy mouth, and so doeth, thou shalt perish'?

If it says that, then Scripture contradicts itself, as it would mean `not everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins' -- a direct contradiction to Acts 10:43b “everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins” (ASV|ESV|ASV).

However, I am looking at Romans 10:9-10. It does not state what you mistakenly infer. Thus far, it looks like there is no contradiction in Scripture, and you goofed.

 

The Romans 10 passage shows that belief that is confessed must be in the heart within the person. Believing and confessing go together. It does not say that if you say nothing you are not saved. However, one who believes will confess that belief, but that is not what saves them.

The Luke 8 parable in that verse is talking about non-salvific belief, since they believe for awhile but then fell away. This means they never had true belief, because true belief stays (as verse 15 shows).

This has nothing to do with water baptism.

 

Marcia,

You ask me, am I Baptist? Yes, I am Baptist. I am currently attend Heritage Baptist church, because of deaf ministry. But, religion means nothing to me. I am just plainly a Christian, and a Bible believer(NOT KJVO).

You say, you are surprise that you never hear a baptist who believe baptism is essential for salvation.

The fact is over 90% of baptists in America, believe we are saved by faith only. Over 90% of baptists in America believe in once saved always saved same as Eternal Security Salvation doctrine. There are about 70% of baptists in America are doing of their method soul winning with "easy believism" as good example of Late Dr. Jack Hyles' method on soul winning.

Early in my Christian life as baptist back in early 1990's. Myself was before believe in OSAS, KJVO, Pretrib rapture, and Premill. Now, I am NOSAS, NKJVO, Posttrib rapture, and Amill.

Why my beliefs have been changed lately?

Well, because I have been read and study Bible with analyze very carefully and strictly according 2 Tim. 2:15 "rightly dividing the word of truth"(correctly manage Word of God).

Throughout years of my Christian life. The more I discovered that Baptists have plenty of errors and misinterpreting on God's Word. Because, I can easily see lot of conflicts in the Bible with baptist doctrine.

For example - baptist doctrine teaching that the rapture will be before tribulation, it so called, "pretrib", but in Matt. 24:29-31 telling us that rapture will be immediately AFTER tribulation. That why, I determined follow God's Word instead of follow men's teaching according Colossians 2:8.

There are so plenty of errors within baptist doctrine, as what I have seen in Bible throughout years lately.

Bible does teaching us that salvation is conditional, that we must meet to have eternal life with "If's", and also our responsible for to respond back the gospel with obedience.

You should be aware that baptist's doctrine of OSAS is compromise with Calvinism doctrine system. Many Baptists won't admit it.

I urge you that you better seek the truth in Bible with Holy Spirit's guide. The truth shall make you free. Lest allow men's doctrine in tradition snare you in the error way.

I am a Christian and a Bible believer, because I understand and 100% agree with everything in Bible, what it saying, I follow them. - Col. 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Let's rethink on Mark 16:16 as what Jesus says:

"He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

1) Jesus in Mark 16:16 says: Believe + Baptized = Saved

2) Universalist says: NOT Believe + NOT Baptised = Saved

3) Atheist says: Believe + Baptized = NOT Saved

4) Infant Baptism says: NOT Believe + Baptized = Saved

5) Faith Only says: Believed + NOT Baptized = Saved

Which one of them is correct? What about Christ's own words? Do you agree with Christ as what He was actiual saying? Do you have problem with Christ's words of Mark 16:16?

Is it too hard for a person to get baptized?

I like Nike's advertisment's famous quote says: "Just Do It". Do you agree with Nike's quote?

Then, why argue on baptism?

In Acts 22:16, as Ananias said to Paul, "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Often, Baptists teaching of salvation: a person have to call upon the Lord then shall be saved, THEN to be baptiuzed.

Is Acts 22:16, a wrong order of salvation as what Ananias told Paul to do?

Not necesscary for Ananias to tell Paul in the exactly order or way how to become saved. Because, Ananias knew that baptized is include with salvation as what Christ and Peter both told them earlier on baptism. Even, Ananias knew that to be baptized for the remission of sins as what Peter said of Acts 2:38.

I am curious, ask you question. When after a person did believed in Jesus, but doesn't want to be baptized, is that person saved, and still go to heaven?? If suppose, you believe that a person did believe in Christ, but refuse to be baptized, is still saved and can go to heaven, then please prove us a verse why you believe this. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Oh really? That your own intepreting with opinion. I disagree with you.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 say:

4) "For it is impossible for those who were ONCE, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6) IF they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

This passage telling us, a person DID ONCE tasted of salvation at the first place, but afterward, person falling away, and is no longer remain partaker of the Holy Ghost. That means, when a person did believed and accepted Jesus at the beginning (in the first place), but then afterward later in period, a person stopped believe or endure for Christ, falling away, and stay in sinful life all the way throughout lifetime, and never repent back to Christ, therefore, a person crucifies Christ and put in a shame(stand before the judgment seat of Christ).

Understand, Heb. 6:4-6 did not saying that, there is no chance for a person who already falling away(backslide), to repent again. This passage tells us very clear that means if a person is currently falling away all the way toward death(physical), then no longer partaker of Christ, crucify against Christ, and put shame before the judgment seat of Christ. Will be end up in everlasting fire. Obivously, Heb. 6:4-6 do not support the doctrine of OSAS.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Let's look closely at Saul's conversion experience in Acts 10.

When Jesus identified himself to Saul in v.5 Saul's immediate reaction was to call Jesus "Lord."

6. And he, trembling and astonished, said "Lord what do you want me to do?"

A Damascus believer named Ananias has a vision in which the Lord instructs hm to go to Saul. Saul has also had a vision that a man named Ananias is coming to see him to give him back his sight.

When Ananias expresses concern, Lord tells him:

15. Go thy way, for he is a chosen vessel unto me..

In verse 17, Ananias goes in to the house, puts his hands on Saul and calls him Brother Saul, a term reserved for a fellow believer. Ananias tells Saul that the Lord Jesus sent him for two reason. One, to receive his sight. Two, to be filled with the Holy Ghost.

I submit that Saul, having encountered the risen Christ, having called him Lord, having Ananias call him Brother Saul, having God refer to him as a chosen vessel, and having been fillled with the Holy Spirit, is already a believer. Only after these occurrences was Saul baptized.

 

If this passage is authentic, which is doubtful according to the ancient manuscripts, Jesus said only this.

He did NOT say `Believe + not baptized = Unsaved.'

Scripture explicitly states elsewhere such things as "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV), as at Acts 10:43.

In some cases, it may not be so easy. I was fortunate; it was easy for me -- after my congregation allowed it for attending long enough.

Because not every Christian has been properly baptized. They may have accepted an `infant baptism' as valid, or some pouring or sprinkling ritual as valid.

Not every Christian can be easily baptized. Maybe they are in a hospital. Maybe they are in a foreign prison. Maybe they are in a country where Christians are so rare they know of no others. Some may be in congregations that withhold baptism, and never think of getting it somewhere else.

Not every dead Christian has been baptized.

Because there have been and are unbaptized Christians, it matters.

If a person is a deliberate rebel against Jesus Christ's command against baptism, then s/he is a rebel against Christ. S/he is not a believer on Jesus Christ as Lord. Unless s/he repents and believes upon Jesus Christ as Lord, then s/he will go to Hell as a rebel against Christ.

This does not describe Christians who have mistaken notions about baptism, and remain unbaptized.

 

Tom Butler,

I would like to say something on Ananias and Paul.

At the very early Church Age in year between 30 A.D. to around 95 A.D. there were few remain left of true 'prophets' like, John the Baptist, Ananias, Peter, Paul, and of course, John, the Beloved. These were prophets that God has special supernatural power to communicate with them by revelation(Gal. 1:12,17-18). That time, God used his special effect by supernatural power communicate through men by revelation like, visions, dreams, visibly appearing.

during the first century of Early Church age, they were doing speaking in tongues, healings, prophets, for the purpose of "sign" revealed to Jew saints(prophets) to know the truth and proof come from God.

Today, we are no longer need prophets, speaking in tongues, healings. Because we now already have BIBLE, everything that we need to know the answers with truths.

Yes, in Acts 22:13 did saying 'Brother Saul'. 'Brother' could easy mean saved as "brother in Christ". But, not what it actual meaning. Because, Christ called him, 'brother Saul' like as, "my dearly child". In fact, notice His original name was Saul, that was prior his salvation. Therefore, this verse 13 doesn't mean that Saul was already saved yet, while Chirst still called him, "Saul". Till after Saul received the sight from blind, then believed on Christ and baptized. He repented his life, no longer anmed him, "Saul", but now 'Paul', show that he is a new man.

Also, in another case for "brother", in Matt. 25:40 says, "my brethren". Many pretrib baptists intepreting this verse 40, which speaking of future seven year of Tribulation period of "saved Jews". But, not what Christ was actual taling about. "My brethren" of Matt. 25:40 is not always mean saved or Christian. In the picture with context of Matt. 25:35-45 talking about serve toward people with compassion and hospitality. Christ means that, He expects us to help or serve toward poor or sick people, either unsaved or saved, as what we are supposed to take our responsiblity to obey Christ's command. Matthew 25:35-45 cover present time between first advent and second advent, we are suppose to obey Christ's commanf, to serve people in our present day.

Therefore, "Brother Saul" of Acts 9:17; and Acts 22:13 not always proved that he was already saved. Acts 22:13 tells us, when Christ was talking to Saul on the road by revelation, he told him(Saul), 'Brother Saul' speaks like as saying, 'My dear or beloved Saul'. Even, Christ didn't say to him, 'Brother Paul' at the first place. Till after his conversion, his life got changed, his old man got passed away, and put on new, therefore, his name changed to 'Paul'. Understand?

So, when come to Acts 22:16, after Saul received his sight, Ananias told Paul, get up, get baptized to wash his sins away, then called upon the Lord. This verse tells us that Paul became saved by baptized, confession, both all go together same time.

Is there conflict between Acts 9:17-18 and Acts 22:16 on the event of Paul's conversion? Notice Acts 9:17 says that Ananaias put his hands on Paul. This was part of 'healing' for to get Paul's sight back to normal again. This was miracle from God. Because, this was 'sign' toward Jews, while both Ananias and Paul were Jews. Sign was required for Jews, while Greeks seek after their wisdom.

Today, we do not need "signs" such as healings, speaking in tongues, prophets anymore. Now we have Bible that, we need everything to know the answers with truths. Understand?

There is no conflict between Acts 9:17-18 and Acts 22:16. Because baptism always come into partially of salvation go toegther same time according as what Mark 16:16 says.

See? My point what I am talking about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

annsni,

Care to define what "faith" means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I have too, but posted 2:8-10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 is even less helpful to JSM17's position.

I still do not understand how we can have unsaved believers and yet have Acts 10:43 still be true. I thought Acts 10:43 "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV) was pretty clear.

 

In Post #90.

Yep, I see your point. And, of course, I still disagree. We still have too many other examples of people who were saved before they were baptized.

Among them, the Ethiopian Eunuch, the people at the house of Cornelius, Lydia, the Philippian jailer. Some of those Athenians who heard Paul's Mars Hill sermon. And of course, Paul's writings over and over again.

 

Darron,

I would like to tell you something on KJV.

First of all, I am not King James Version Onlylist. I used KJV all the times, because, I consider KJV is more close to Greek and Hebrew translation than any Versions(Bibles), also, it is more classical grammar and words of (past,present, and future tenses) as KJV comes from 1611 Authorized Version. I do have 1611 A.V. with me.

When we notice in Mark 16:16 says, "believETH", it is a present tense word means, 'believing'. It does not say, 'believED' in KJV. If suppose, KJV of Mark 16:16 would say: 'believed', then it means past tense word, and it proves that, onced believed is an automatically already saved at once.

But, KJV does not saying, "believED", because it is not a one time event. It is just beginning of Christian life.

Now, let's notice in KJV Mark 16:16 says, "baptizED", it shows that, it is a past tense. It tells us that, baptized is a ONE time event in our Christian life. We don't have to baptized again.

Today, some religions like, Assembly of God, Church of Christ, and EVEN, some Baptist churches are doing re-baptize again. Re-baptizing is unbiblical.

Baptism is a one time event.

Throughout in the New Testament of KJV on 'believeth' always is a present tense. Nowhere in N.T. KJV saying of 'believed' as a one time event of once saved always saved doctrine. Even, in Romans 10:9-13, in this context passage does not show of past tense word, such as 'confess', 'shalt believe', 'believeth', these are present tense word.

Romans 10:9-13 speaking of the promise to us, IF anyone who will believe, confess with mouth and heart to call upon the Lord, WILL be saved. This does not mean that when ONCE we did believed, confessed, called upon the Lord, then we are already automatically already saved at once for good. No. This passage tells us in our currently lifetime, that we must endure professing toward people that we are not ashamed tell them that we do literally believe that God already rasied Christ from the dead with our mouth and heart while we are still alive same time. Also, in other word, while we are still alive, we should continue with our prayer commuciate with the Lord with our confession keep in believing on Christ all the times till we died.

Also, there is another passage with the example of Romans 10:9-10 on "confess", it refers with Matt. 10:32-33.

in Matt. 10:32-33, Jesus said, "Whosoever therefore shall CONFESS me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

This passage was written apply to us as Christians, not unsaved. This passage deals with facing persecution before people. If suppose, you are in a reality faced with people who is perscuting you at same time, they would say to you, "Are you a Christian?" What IF you feel fear inside your feeling and sensitive, and do not want to admit tell the honest while faced them at same time, do not want to face death. Instead, telling the lie to them, "No, I am not Christian." Then, they will stop persecute and will elave you alive. BUT, you DENY Jesus.

In 2 Timothy 2:12 says: "IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him: (or) IF we deny him, he also will DENY us." This verse tells us of conditional life that we are facing the reality. When facing persecution, have to endure it with suffer all the way till our death, then we shall reign with Christ. "Reign" does not mean that we will reign with Christ for 1,000 years on earth-millennial kingdom. "Reign" is a picture of have ETERNAL LIFE with Christ as overcomer.

OR, what if we facing persecution same time, do not want to be suffer, as we would saying to them, "No, I am not a Christian". Then, Christ will DENY(reject) us! That means, He would not own us at the end.

Look to Rev. 3:5 as Christ said: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will CONFESS his name before my Father, and before his angels."

I better stop this post, it already long. I am continue discuss in the next post.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

To be continued...

Rev. 3:5 promises us, if anyone who overcometh them till death(physically) THEN Christ will not blot(removed or erase) person's name off from the book of Life, and He shall confess person's name before His Father and the angels.

'Overcometh' means winning the battles against world, flesh, and devil in our life. That means, we must endure throughout our life till death(Matt. 10:22; Matt 24:13), if we finally make all the way to the end, and victory over them like as we pass the "FINISH LINE"(enter into the gate by through the narrow road- Matt. 7:13-14) at our death(physical), then, Christ will not remove our names away from the book of Life, and will confess before His Father and angels.

OR.... if we fail to endure in the midst of our lifetime, and quit serve the Lord, back to the world again, by the time, we die, then Christ WILL REMOVED our names away from the book of life, and He will deny us before His Father and angels! Wow! Rev. 3:5 is a conditional!


Now back to Romans 10:9-13, this passage is deal with our present lifetime, that our responsible is to react back toward people and God that we must be honest by admit telling them being not be ashamed that I am a Christian. Also, we must be continue believing on Christ all the way till our death then we shall be saved.

In Romans 11:19-23 warn us, if we being unbelief in our currently lifetime AFTER our salvation, then we would be cut off FROM the tree, just like as find in John 15:4-6.

Clearly, both Romans 11:19-23 and John 15:4-6 are conditional. Therefore, well also, Romans 10:9-13 are clearly conditional with word of "IF".

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

annsni,

You are partially correct on Hebrews 11:1-2 on define word of 'faith'. True, the faith means that we have the hope that we do not see the reality things, as we are not yet arrive there.

For example, when you sitting in the plane, you do not see the pilot, but you have faith in pilot, believing in pilot all the way to the arrival place without having doubt. That is a faith.

But, not that all as you quoted of Heb. 11:1-2, also, you have to read throughout whole chapter 11 as contextually as what "faith" is talking about.

While we read throughout whole chapter 11, we see the examples of Old Testament saints in their lifetime, what they had done in their faith. These examples of O.T. saints of their faith, show that their faith were ACTIONS.

Paul said in Romans 1:17: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, the just shall LIVE by faith."

Paul tells us that, we should walk by the faith in our life. Faith is action throughout our lifetime, not just one time event.

Paul quoted Romans 1:17 from Habakkuk 2:4.

Dispensationalists saying that the salvation in the Old Testament period, was conditional, because of no grace there. Oh really?

No. That is not true. Throughout whole Bible both O.T. and N.T. teaching us that salvation is conditional. God's plan of salvation for us from O.T. to N.T. both are always the same plan of salvation.

Before we get arrive Hebrews chapter 11. Few verses earlier prior chapter 11. In Hebrews 10:38 says, "Now the just shall LIVE by faith: But if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

This verse tells us, that a just person shall LIVE by faith, God shall pleasure in person. BUT, if any person, who turn away from God, He will not pleasure in this person. Clearly, this verse is conditional.

"Live" of Hab. 2:4; Rom. 1:17; and Heb. 10:38 are speaking of having WALK in the light throughout our life and having relationship with the Lord. Clear, faith is an action. Even, faith is a conditional too.

Later another time, I will discuss deep on James chapter 2 about 'faith' and 'work'. Which relates with Abraham's lifetime. Even also, in Romans 4:3-5 too. I will discuss on these later.

I would like to say something on Hebrews chapter 11 on Hall of Faith Heroes. I want to emphasis on Noah importantly. When Noah was called by God, He told him that, He will destroy the earth with flood, he wanted him to built the Ark. My big question is. What IF suppose, in the midst time while Noah builts the Ark, probably, people make fun and mocking at Noah, thinks he's nut. Probably, he would become despress, and fraustration. Decide to stop built the Ark, and return back to world again. Then, Noah and his family would have been already KILLED by flood, and there would be no hope of gospel and Calvary, and we would not be being exist!

See?

Throughout the whole chapter 11 of Hebrews did recorded as what the O.T. saints already done with their life as they did walked in their faith. Now, they are in heaven with the Lord. Because, they already overcame them in their faith.

Faith is an action. Faith is a conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Well, I'm a Christian and a Bible believer, too, and I disagree with you on several points. Btw, I was not in a Baptist church when I was saved; it was a liberal church where I was saved despite the teachings there. God led me there a few months before - I was not into Christianity because I was an astrologer, while going to this church. A few months later, I was saved reading the Bible.

 

I am not against baptism. We are told to be baptized so we should. Yes, I think a person will go to heaven if they are not baptized. If they refuse to be baptized I would have to say that they are not understanding why they should be baptized or they are not saved.

I was not baptized until 1 yr. and 2 months after I was saved. I was saved, DeafPostTrib, in late December, 1990 and baptized in Feb. 1992.

You cannot tell me I was not saved until 1992 because I know without a doubt of my salvation experience in Dec. 1990.

 

This is from Wikipedia: