COMMON-ground?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jul 24, 2011.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    In the other thread it was clearly shown that many Calvinistic scholars (including Calvin himself) affirm that "God loves all people" and genuinely "desires all people to be saved."

    I presented these quotes in effort to show that this CAN and SHOULD be COMMON-GROUND for Arminian (non-cal) and Calvinistic believers.

    In the process we learned that many here don't share this "common ground" with men like John Calvin, J.MacArthur, J. Piper, RC Sproul, C. Spurgeon, JI Packer, J. Edwards, Thomas Boston, John Brown, Andrew Fuller, W. G. T. Shedd, R. L. Dabney, B. B. Warfield, John Murray, R. B. Kuiper, and many others.

    So, my question is this: How can we rightly call what some here believe is "Calvinism" if Calvin himself and many of his mainstream followers wouldn't affirm this doctrine? Since "hyper-Calvinism" (what Phil Johnson has called this view) tends to connote anti-evangelism, what term would better fit those here who "out Calvin the Calvinists?" Maybe "extreme-Calvinism" or "Radically Reformed?"

    Why not just affirm the clear biblical revelation regarding God's love and desire for the salvation of all people? Why must this be a point of contention?
     
    #1 Skandelon, Jul 24, 2011
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  2. Dr. Bob

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    II Chron 19:2 Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet the king and said to him, "Is it right for you to help the wicked and to love those who hate the LORD? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is upon you."

    I have heard this verse used to justify a lack of love for 'haters' of God. To me, that is "hyper". Why?

    It's personal. I was a 'hater of God' for many years. But I, for one, am thankful that God loved me even while I was His sworn enemy and a hater of all that was righteous or holy. From eternity He put His love on me and called me "His beloved" while I joined the throng shouting, "Crucify Him".
     
  3. Iconoclast

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    Skandelon,
    I give you credit for at least trying to look at some men who believe in the grace of God.Many here will not do that. Sadly however it looks like you have twisted motives.
    What I mean is this;you said
    1] I want you, Icon, and others to understand that the view your are exposing is really more in line with what some might call "Hyper-Calvinism."

    So now you are twisting calvinism into hyper calvinism? if you understood biblical calvinism you would not make this false allegation.you make this claim here in the new post;

    2] In the other thread it was clearly shown that many Calvinistic scholars (including Calvin himself) affirm that "God loves all people" and genuinely "desires all people to be saved."

    Nothing was clearly shown...at all. Did you read JM's article? It does not seem as if you did. If you did you would have seen this;

    And also in this article he says:
    This clearly shows that JM also makes a distinction between SAVING LOVE....and the love of benevolence...as I posted in the other thread.

    Someone also ignorantly posted that it is all about love:flower:
    It is all about God's Holiness...every attribute of God is Holy....

    In Isa.6 the cherubim do not say ....love , love, love....they say Holy Holy Holy. whoever posted that in ignorance did not read this link where JM rips that false idea in the opening of this article.


    Once he makes this distinction....it changes the whole direction of the post.

    Where is the calvin article?
    I need to see the whole article....


    Piper speaks out of both sides of his mouth, Clark Pinnock has come out as an open theist I believe.



    [QUOTELove is the best known but least understood of all God's attributes. Almost everyone who believes in God these days sees Him as a God of love. I have even met agnostics who are quite certain that if God exists, He must be benevolent, compassionate, and loving.

    All those things are infinitely true about God, of course, but not in the way most people think. Because of the influence of modern liberal theology, many suppose that God's love and goodness ultimately nullify His righteousness, justice, and holy wrath. They envision God as a benign heavenly grandfather-tolerant, affable, lenient, permissive, devoid of any real displeasure over sin, who without consideration of His holiness will benignly pass over sin and accept people as they are.

    Liberal thinking about God's love also permeates much of evangelicalism today. We have lost the reality of God's wrath. We have disregarded His hatred for sin. The God most evangelicals now describe is all-loving and not at all angry. We have forgotten that "It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31). We do not believe in that kind of God anymore.

    We must recapture some of the holy terror that comes with a right understanding of God's righteous anger. We need to remember that God's wrath does burn against impenitent sinners (Psalm 38:1-3). That reality is the very thing that makes His love so amazing. Only those who see themselves as sinners in the hands of an angry God can fully appreciate the magnitude and wonder of His love
    ][/QUOTE]
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Benjamin had said this...among other things

    Well now....if you took the time to read the article you would see that Johnny M. speaks of this same distinction that you refer to as darkness,right here;


    [QUOTEAt this point, however, an important distinction must be made: God loves believers with a particular love. God's love for the elect is an infinite, eternal, saving love. We know from Scripture that this great love was the very cause of our election (Ephesians 2:4). Such love clearly is not directed toward all of mankind indiscriminately, but is bestowed uniquely and individually on those whom God chose in eternity past.][/QUOTE]


    Speaking of all of this darkness...it reminded me how God lead his people by light...but it appeared as darkness to the unbelievers;

    Also Benjamin....perhaps you can "enlighten" me.
    You claim that my evangelism is darkness ..according to your idea of how to witness to a person. You claim it is ALL ABOUT LOVE.

    Well my friend.....how about you read through the whole book of Acts and see what the apostles preached.....The word LOVE....does not appear in any sermon.....as a matter of fact...it does not appear in the whole book of Acts.
    imagine that Benjamin.....those evil apostles must have been in darkness then also in your world?

    The word love does not appear...and yet in the cross,and IN Christ...the elect come to know of the Love of God. The love of God that is only in Christ.

    I notice you and Skandelon did not comment on the Romans 5...and romans 8 passages....again...I think I understand.
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Skan
    Calvinists know what calvinism is. You do not seem to know as you use a broad brush, make general statements and , then wait for a response?

    here is a link for AW.PINK
    http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

    He can defend himself.

    You are mixing the two ideas....which JM kept seperate.


    In case you are short on time here is some aw pink
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Jul 25, 2011
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Speaking of all of this darkness...it reminded me how God lead his people by light...but it appeared as darkness to the unbelievers;



    Also Benjamin....perhaps you can "enlighten" me.
    You claim that my evangelism is darkness ..according to your idea of how to witness to a person. You claim it is ALL ABOUT LOVE.

    Well my friend.....how about you read through the whole book of Acts and see what the apostles preached.....The word LOVE....does not appear in any sermon.....as a matter of fact...it does not appear in the whole book of Acts.
    imagine that Benjamin.....those evil apostles must have been in darkness then also in your world?

    The word love does not appear...and yet in the cross,and IN Christ...the elect come to know of the Love of God. The love of God that is only in Christ.

    I notice you and Skandelon did not comment on the Romans 5...and romans 8 passages....again...I think I understand.[/QUOTE]

    :laugh: Good, very good...:thumbs:
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Splendid comment :godisgood:

    Icon: Calvinists know what calvinism is. You do not seem to know as you use a broad brush, make general statements and , then wait for a response?
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

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  9. preacher4truth

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    Well, I for one see nothing you've said being dark, or in darkness, and think that was unfair, as a matter of fact, I sense your love for the Lord and His Word.

    As Dr. Bob says above (in essence) we understand and love that Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost. I never knew this about Dr. Bobs experience before Christ as he's stated. Yet, in 1 Timothy 1, we see this also the state of even Paul himself, a blasphemer against the church &c. Then: GRACE!!!!!

    And this grace in salvation is a pattern to all who believe! As a matter of fact it is "super abounding" grace. A word and phrase used nowhere else in the NT.

    To some, preaching seems ugly or dark, even as you mention in Acts it might be turned this way, but to us it is beautiful and it is light and life.

    Common ground is Jesus and Him seeking to save us. That is beautiful!

    - Peace brother
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Jul 25, 2011
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  10. Benjamin

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    Are you telling us the newest name for “Hyper Calvinism” is “biblical Calvinism”??? As you write your “bible truth” in read letters??? Are you really reasoning that your oxymoronic red letter euphemism for “Hyper Calvinism” through the fallacy of offering a proof surrogate of if “we understood biblical Calvinism” …so then we should thereby accept on your authority that your view is biblical and therefore not the “Hyper Calvinism” which preaches God’s love is for the pre-selected few??? Well…if so my friend, your rhetorical argument is not only lacking any form of validity but is freakishly appearing to have some kind of weird cultic twist to it with that red letter thing goin on.

    I noticed you didn’t comment on 1John 1:5.

    (1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

    Here we have - “The grand message of the Gospel, the great principle on which the happiness of man depends.” ~ Clarke

    Yet, you attempt to preach the Gospel message, the Word, the Light that God put into the world is full of darkness and despair for those poor non-preselected creatures who must remain ignorant and not have the real ability to know the truth of God’s love and are without hope to ever receive the promise.

    But Jesus/the Light/the Word delivers the promise of Good News differently than Iconoclast:

    (Joh 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    (1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    (1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    (1Ti 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    (1Ti 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    (2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    (Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Iconoclast apparently hasn’t heard of the instructions about the message that we are to preach, or maybe he is just being disobedience because of being opposed to preaching God’s love to all the world? You Iconoclast, seem ashamed of the word “love” and go on to boast that the Book of Acts does not contain the word “love”, but the Book of Acts repeatedly speaks of being filled with the Holy Spirit and what does the Word say about the function of the Holy Spirit which fills those who believe the Truth???:

    (Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghostwhich is given unto us.

    Maybe your hope is in something other than the love of God? Perhaps those of the doctrine of pre-selection election grace don’t “really” need to even seek the love of the truth, maybe they are too proud to confess God’s love and to freely return God’s love freely given to all, maybe they would rather count on God forcing it upon them?! Is that the only way they can understand an Omniscient, Omnipotent God could make them bow, not by His revelation of love (Omnibenevolence) but by deterministic force? Some understanding of of God's Holy attribute of Love you have...
     
    #10 Benjamin, Jul 25, 2011
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  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

    What then shall we say? Is God unjustified? Not at all! For He says to Moses,

    " I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

    Please Bob, kindly interpret this for us. Thanks
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    "Israel I have loved, Edom I have loved less". ?????
     
  13. quantumfaith

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    Sorry EWF, noticed that you addressed that to Bob. My apologies.
     
  14. Skandelon

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    I think this is very well stated! I too was a 'hater of God' and an object of his wrath. Thank God for His Love and Mercy!
     
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Thats correct, everyone was a hater of God before salvation.

    But to my Calvinist brethren I advise patience in dealing with these Non Calvinist folks....after all they dont have the same prospectives as you so allot of this is falling through the cracks ...I advise dealing with them in love & exceeding patience (least you be called arrogant yourself....or worse) :godisgood:

    Blessings
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Frankly, I think if you read the articles in their entirity you would see their motive is similar to mine. Consider what MacArthur said at the beginning: "I am troubled by the tendency of some - often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine - who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe. I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency."
    If you go back and re-read the other thread, I concede this point. I understand that MacArthur distinguishes saving love from his common love, but the fact that some Calvinists here don't seem to even do that, but instead seem to insist that God only hates the reprobate by denying ANY level of divine love for them proves them to be outside the mainstream.

    So, MacArthur agrees with Pink on one point but takes a strong stand against Pink on another. You seem to focus on their agreement and ignore the disagreement. The fact is, that the stand JM is taking against Pink is the same one I'm taking against those on this board who would agree with Pinks views on this subject. So there is no reason to accuse me of misrepresenting these men or their articles.

    Additionally, this is NOT just about God's common love for all mankind. It is also about his genuine desire for all to be saved, which again is not something these Calvinists deny. In fact, as shown, some of them say those who don't affirm that God wants all to be saved are "hyper" in their views. That is not my opinion, that is a stated and verified fact.

    It's fine to disagree with these men, but don't blame me for it. :)
     
    #16 Skandelon, Jul 25, 2011
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  17. psalms109:31

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    Mercy

    We should go back to the old testiment ways and hate the wicked.

    We have an adulterer lets stone her to death. So the one without sin cast the first stone, just one who is not wicked cast the first stone.

    Jesus who was the only one who could and didn't, but forgave her.

    O..K. let us go back to the old days and not suffer a witch to live. So the one without sin light the fire, just one who is not wicked light the fire.


    When we were sinner, wicked Christ died for us. He forgave us when we came to Him the only one who can save us.

    Jesus tells us we once was taught to hate our enemies, but now He tells us to love them and bless those who curse you. Without Christ we are worthy of hell fire and He is the only one who can save us.

    Who has righteousness apart from Christ?

    2 Corinthians 5:
    16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
     
    #17 psalms109:31, Jul 25, 2011
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  18. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Skan Said:

    "but instead seem to insist that God only hates the reprobate by denying ANY level of divine love for them proves them to be outside the mainstream."

    Who said that?
     
  19. JesusFan

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    Would have to say that you are one of the "more moderate" posters here on the opposite to cal camp, the "no named theology" types...

    Would think that there are indeed differing positions within even cals, as I tend to hold to more moderate position in regards to this, as I never claimed Cal=Bible/Gospel, or that God determines everything that occurs directly...

    Even me believing in Unlimited atonment view of the Death of Christ places me outside the camp in a strict sense!

    Would say that when one discusses this, danger is to emphasise Holiness/Judgement nature of God Vrs His love nature...

    Since God is equal/Infinite in ALL His divine attributes...

    My current take on this is that God loves all people in same way as I can love all Children, but have "specific" greater love towards my own children!
     
  20. Skandelon

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    I am troubled by the tendency of some - often young people newly infatuated with Reformed doctrine - who insist that God cannot possibly love those who never repent and believe.

    I encounter that view, it seems, with increasing frequency.
    The argument inevitably goes like this: Psalm 7:11 tells us "God is angry with the wicked every day." It seems reasonable to assume that if God loved everyone, He would have chosen everyone unto salvation. Therefore, God does not love the non-elect. Those who hold this view often go to great lengths to argue that John 3:16 cannot really mean God loves the whole world.

    Perhaps the best-known argument for this view is found the unabridged edition of an otherwise excellent book, The Sovereignty of God, by A. W. Pink. Pink wrote, "God loves whom He chooses. He does not love everybody." [1] He further argued that the word world in John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world...") "refers to the world of believers (God's elect), in contradistinction from 'the world of the ungodly.'"[2] -
    MacArthur
     
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