Concerning, just, Hades

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, May 26, 2016.

  1. percho

    percho
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    “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matt 16:18 NKJV

    Does that in bold mean?

    A. The church will never pass through the gates of Hades?
    B. She will pass through the gates of Hades but they will not be able to keep her therein, forever?

    lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' YLT 1 Cor 15:52-55

    Is it at that moment, at that twinkling of an eye when the gates of Hades no longer prevail against the church of the living God?
     
  2. TCassidy

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    This is one of those phrases that are used often but seldom understood. "The gates" indicates authority. It was the custom to use the rooms in the city wall that were adjacent to the city gate for a meeting place for the leaders of the city to conduct city business.

    Thus "he sat in the gate" means he was on the "city council" or was a leader in that community.

    The gates of hell, or the authority of hell/hades/death, will not prevail against Christ's church. The reason for that is "all authority has been given unto Me." The true, biblical, spirit led church of Jesus Christ will endure as hell/hades/death has no authority over it.
     
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  3. Van

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    As with many vague phrases in Scripture, you can find many differing interpretations, based largely on speculation. One view, among many, has the lost actually in Hades in the here and now. This is based on us being "in the realm of darkness." Thus the church will overcome the "gates" (or method of confining the lost) and set free those whose faith is credited as righteousness. As I said, this is the one I like, but it is speculation.

    In scripture there are references to the gates of Death (Job 38:17, Proverbs 9:13) and the gates of Sheol. (Isaiah 38:10)
     
    #3 Van, May 26, 2016
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  4. percho

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    From your post in the thread, The Doctrine of Hell

    Jesus was, for three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Or in the grave. He was in "hades" - the abode of the dead. This, of course, referring to His humanity. His human body. His Deity as in Heaven, with the thief from the other cross, and with the Father, and in the Heavenly City, and attending the Heavenly Mercy Seat (Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.). He, who, was in Hades? Jesus the Son of Man who asked the question and received the answer, "Thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God,"?

    A couple of things.

    First what does this verse state?
    For You will not leave my soul in Sheol,
    Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. NKJV Ps 16:10 Quoted by Peter in Acts 2:27 probably from the LXX with Hades replacing Sheol and Peter states in verses 30,31 this isn't David speaking of himself but speaking of the resurrection of the Christ, that the soul of him would not be left in Hades, neither would the flesh of His Holy One see corruption, in Hades. From your post above the abode of the dead (one?)

    How did the soul Jesus find itself in Sheol/Hades?

    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Romans 6:9

    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead (his soul not left in Hades) dieth no more; death hath no more dominion (did not prevail) over (against) him.

    having obtained eternal redemption for us. From your posted quote above. When did Jesus, obtain, our redemption?
     
  5. Darrell C

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    "The gates of Hades," from what I have been told, was a euphemism for death, much like the word "sleep" is used.

    If that is what in view, then the Lord is stating "I will build my Church and death shall not prevail (against it)."

    We know from various Scriptures that this is a basic principle taught in the New Testament.

    Secondly, I think we have to maintain the context of the Age this is stated in, which was Pre-Cross and prior to the liberation of the Just from Hades. So we see that not only will death not prevail against the building of the Church (which is the salvation of men who are immersed into God), but Hades did not prevail over those among the just who died in faith.

    Ultimately, we are told Hades is cast into the Lake of Fire, bringing a finality to it's existence and correlation to mankind.



    I would place it as the time when, as the Lord states, He begins building His Church. His Church is built upon confession of the Person of Christ, which began in full revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ at Pentecost, when the disciples were Baptized with the Holy Ghost (placed in Christ) and empowered to preach the Gospel.


    God bless.
     
  6. percho

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    So you believe 1 Cor 15:52 - 55 has already taken place in the past? That 1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality, has already taken place? The last trumpet has already sounded?
     
  7. Darrell C

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    Not at all. But the Rapture is just one aspect of Christ's victory over death. The idea, I believe, is that the Church being built is the process of men gaining eternal life, which, as Christ taught, means that man will never die (which speaks of eternal life, not physical, because the Lord made it clear that His own would be put to death.

    No. That is, in it's context...speaking about the glorification of the Saint, not salvation in Christ, at which time we obtain eternal life through the process of being born again.

    Not yet, but my hope is that it will any day now, because I, like Paul, yearn for that day and that body which is not earthly:



    2 Corinthians 5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.



    What he is speaking about when he speaks of being "naked" is dying prior to the rapture and going to be with the Lord in Spirit form alone, being separated from our body.

    It's very simple...death has no power over the Church, except for those who fear death because they do not understand what lies ahead.

    He makes it clear that we don't simply desire to die...


    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.



    ...but that we would receive that body which eternal.


    God bless.
     
  8. percho

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    For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
    Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
    Acts 2:27 NKJV

    and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. YLT Luke 23:46

    Being found naked?

    When the spirit returns to God who gave it, what is left?

    Is it not the dead soul and a body of flesh subject to being dissolved? The dead soul in a dead earthly house of tabernacle?

    When will the soul be found in it's house from heaven. At what moment, at what twinkling of the eye will the corruptible put on the incorruptible?
     
  9. Darrell C

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    When David speaks this, he is speaking about his person, not his spirit, not his immaterial aspect of his existence, because he trusted in the resurrection of the dead.

    Christ committed His Spirit, not His soul...to God.


    Yep.



    2 Corinthians 5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.



    The concept presented here deals with having a body a representing being "clothed," and not having a body as unclothed, or naked.

    His desire is that he/we would be clothed upon with that heavenly building/tabernacle/house, for if so, he says, we will not be found unclothed/naked.

    This refers to our being in spirit form without body.

    The disciples and Christ give us insight to the state of man when he is "unclothed:"





    Luke 24:36-39

    King James Version (KJV)


    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.



    And if Christ defines the state of a man who has died as being a spirit, not a soul, then I think we can safely adopt that definition.




    The spirit of a man is not necessarily in view, though we can impose a Sovereignty context into that passage, meaning that when men and animals die, the "control" they once enjoyed over their existence ends.

    When men die, their spirits separate from their bodies, and the just go to be with God, while the unjust go to Hades, where they will reside until they are resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne. The just, as Paul teaches here, go to be with the Lord in Heaven (Christ now having opened up a way into the Holiest Place through His death).

    So what is left is a corpe that will rot in the grave, and the spirit of the man who will go to the place determined by his response to the will of God. If he has obeyed God (which in this Age is the demand to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ) he goes to Heaven; if he has rejected God's will...he goes into Hades, at which time his everlasting punishment/torment starts.

    No, it s the spirit of the soul (person) and a body of flesh which no longer has physical life, thus rots.


    The unsaved are indeed "dead souls," until they have the life of Christ. The only living souls are those born again. Because we are born separated from God...we have no life, despite having physical life. We are made alive (quickened) in Christ.


    At the Rapture.

    And while we do not know the day or the hour, we are told we should know the signs of the times, which in my view is that it may not be that long before the Lord calls us up.

    And this is the desire Paul expresses in 2 Corinthians 5, his hope was that the Rapture would occur that we not be found naked (in spirit form), but clothed upon with the glorified body.


    God bless.
     
  10. percho

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    DC

    Who say ye that I am?
    Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God.
    Flesh and blood did not reveal that unto you but my Father which is in heaven.

    Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: ----- Jesus commended the spirit of himself into the hands of his Father, the living God.

    At that point did the living Jesus to into the hands of his Father, the living God?
    Or was the sinless one, the one who the virgin Mary had brought forth from her womb and they called his name Jesus, dead, because of our sins?

    When the sinless one gave his life, his being, commended his spirit into the hands of his Father, where was the once living soul Jesus and where was his body of flesh?
    Six hours later, where was the once living soul Jesus and where was his body of flesh?
    Thirty six hours later? ------- and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' YLT Gen 2:17 Is that what the sinless one did for our sins?

    KJV 1 Cor 15:1-3 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ----- I ask you. Did the Son of the living God give his life, die, for our sins?

    His spirit was in the hands of his Father the living God. Where was Jesus, the Son of the living God?

    1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. -------- What did the dead Son of the living God inherit, as the heir of God, by which we could be given life from the dead?

    In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 ---- Who was that promise made for, the sinful Adam or the sinless Son of God who came in the figure of the sinful Adam?

    Seventy two hours later?

    Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; Gal 1:1
    And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Acts 13:34
    Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27

    I (the God the Father) will give you (the Son of God).
     
  11. Darrell C

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    If you see relevance of this, you will need to explain it.

    In view in Matthew 16 is that Peter is enlightened by God to know that Jesus is the long awaited Messiah. This does not mean Peter was trusting in the Risen Savior:



    Matthew 16:20-23

    King James Version (KJV)


    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.




    God has always enlightened men who are natural to spiritual truth, because we know that no man has the ability in his natural condition to know or receive the spiritual things of God.

    Now, Percho...what relevance is there in your quote to the discussion at hand?


    If you would learn to quote what was already said and answer that directly, there would be no need for me to reiterate what I already said.

    The ball is in your court, lol, it is for you to address what I already said on this in the previous post.


    I guess you have a concept of Christ being caught up by God when He died physically, which is not what is in view in regards to the Lord "committing His spirit to the Father," just as that is not in view in the following:


    John 10:27-29

    King James Version (KJV)


    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.



    The Lord is simply acknowledging God's Sovereignty in the matter.


    C'mon, Percho.

    1. It is basic that Christ died for the sins of the world. That means your sins, that means my sins.

    2. Christ died physically...not spiritually on the Cross, so yes...He died.

    3. That His physical death was sufficient for the payment of sins is evident in His statement "...it is finished!"


    Christ did not go into Hades to continue making Atonement, that was accomplished through...His death. That death was physical, and His going into Hades was for the purpose of declaring victory over sin and death and liberating the Just from Hades. When we consider the statement "...you will not leave my "soul" in Hades" we understand this to be a reference to the hope of resurrection (though prophetic of Christ), so we make a mistake, in my view, when we do not distinguish the prophetic nature of the Prophecy itself and how that is used in connection with Christ. It is similar to Christ's statement "My God! My GOd! Why hast thou forsaken me," when we make it a concept that the Father deserted Christ, or, turned His back on Him. We have but to look at the Psalm and see it in it's original context and conclude one very simple truth: God never forsook David...either.


    The "soul" refers to the person, Percho, so we do not technically ask "Where did Christ's soul go," and if you had read the last post you would have seen that it was clarified...it was His spirit he committed into the hands of the Father...not His soul.

    Christ never ceased being alive in spirit, only in the body. That is an important distinction to understand.

    His spirit went into Hades, His body lie in the grave. The two comrise the soul, even as we are taught in the beginning:


    Genesis 2:7

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



    If the cults understood this they would forsake their heresies of Soul Sleep and Annihilation.




    The soul, the Person of Christ was in Hades, his body went in the tomb.


    My advice is stay away from the YLT, it confuses more than anything, and tends to help certain cultic ideas. Sincerely comprised, I am sure, but abused, dry, and does not show the Theological understanding seen in other translations.

    Secondly, another great misconception and misunderstanding about the verse you quote above is that there is an implication that men gained eternal life from the Tree of Life.

    God is the source of eternal life, not that tree, lol. What is in view is man living evermore in the condition Adam is now found in, that is...spiritually dead. When men are born today, in the likeness and image of their earthly fathers (c.f. Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 5:3), they are born separated from God and spiritually dead. If they had access to that tree the best they could hope for would be sustenance of physical life, which is all that was provided men under past Ages. It is not until this Age and the establishment of the New Covenant that the provision for eternal life...came from Heaven.

    Lastly, again I ask...relevance?

    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

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    Not sure why you seem to think I have denied that Christ died, lol.

    Again, you need to start quoting your antagonist so you can keep the context of the discussion. You will never be effective in regards to Doctrinal Debate...until you learn to do that.


    Again, you have created a concept foreign to what Scripture is actually teaching.

    You understand that Christ...was God, right?


    What does inheritance have to do with what you quote here?


    In the passage quoted it is specific to Paul.


    Here is an example of where Christ was roughly 72 hours later, give or take, lol:


    John 20:15-17

    King James Version (KJV)


    15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

    16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



    Now, look at the Lord's statement that He had not "ascended" yet. What does this apply to, Percho, the physical or the spiritual?

    In view is the Lord's bodily return to Heaven from whence He came. We do not create a dogmatic position that while physically dead...Christ did not go to Heaven, for the simple reasons that (1) He is God and (2) we see in several passages indication that Christ liberated the Just from Hades, finally fulfilling the type/shadow/figure seen in the Law in the Holy of Holies (men coming into God's presence), whereby He entered into the Holiest of All through His death.

    In view is the Ascension of Christ which will take place roughly forty days later (Acts 1:9).


    Again, I see no relevance.

    This speaks of His physical death, Percho.

    How that is relevant to the OP is that at death, He went into Hades. That His "soul should not suffer corruption" is a reference to His body, rather than his spirit, because men do not "suffer corruption" in that sense in Hades. Their spirits await final judgment which will take place when they are bodily resurrected to stand before the Great White Throne.

    Now, I will ask that if you would like any more participation from me in this thread, that you quote what I say then make your address. I would prefer you did not cherry-pick, but at the very least preface your comments and questions with what I have actually said. If you don't understand how to do that, just let me know, I will be glad to help you with it, because I would prefer to see you effectively debating Scripture.


    God bless.


     
  13. HankD

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    Amen.
    Also - "shall not prevail against it" To say this means (prima facie) - they will certainly try.

    HankD
     
  14. percho

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    lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we -- we shall be changed: for it behoveth this corruptible to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality; and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

    Is the we there speaking of the church that was built whether the ones of that church had died, sleep, or are alive at the last trump?

    Are those who sleep, have died construed to be associated with Hades in that passage?

    Does that passage state death into Hades no longer prevails over we, the church when the church has put in incorruptibility?

    Does your copy of the word of God state that Peter said by the soul of Christ not being left in Hades, David was speaking of the resurrection of Jesus from the realm of the dead, Jesus the Christ being raised from the dead and not speaking of himself, David? Was it through death that the soul of the Christ found itself in Hades?
     
  15. HankD

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    Matthew 13 is the story concerning satan's attempt to destroy the church.

    e.g. The wheat and the tares.

    HankD
     
  16. percho

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    The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
    Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Matt 13:38,43

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:17

    I wonder what it is that puts that shine on the righteous church once the gates of Hades has not prevailed against her?

    Also Matt 25:31-34 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
     
  17. HankD

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    I agree, I only said that satan and company would try to prevail over the church and try they have.

    Look at Christendom at large (which collectively is not really the church which is the pure wheat hidden within the leavened meal).

    In reality I believe this is part of the separation process going on right now - bundling the tares (into denominations), throwing out the bad fish, separating and herding the goats from the sheep. I believe this is just the beginning of the Lord's separation of His own who hear His voice.

    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.


    HankD
     

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