Conditional Security Book

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by untangled, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello People,

    Any pastors here received a book called, "The Conditional Security of the Believer" in the mail? I just received it and it seemed like they were trying to sell it although it was supposed to be a gift.

    The book is attacking the belief in Eternal Security. Basically, if you believe in eteral security you are a heretic. It seems like this guy has too much time on his hands and decides to devote most of his ministry to convincing people not to believe in ES.

    If you have received this, what was your take?


    By the way, I did not read it. I trashed it.

    :Fish:
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Three years ago, I ordered that book, and I already read it throughout whole 801 pages. It is very good.

    Myself a baptist. I used to believe in eternal security salvation for many years till about 3 years ago, I left it, because I saw so many conflicts in the Bible on security salvation.

    6 years ago, whilst myself was securist. I read in Matthew 25:14-30. Verse 26 to 30 disturbed me the mostly. Because this passage is not clearly teaching on security salvation. I have been struggle with Bible on security salvation for 3 years!!!

    Dan Corner considers all security pastors & calvinism pastors are go to hell for teaching on that. Probably he is right.

    But, not every securists like Late Dr. John R. Rice, Late Dr. Curtis Hutson, Late Dr. Jack Hyles, Dr. Lee Roberson, Dr. Tom Malone Sr., etc... are go to hell. No doubt, I believe Dr. John R. Rice is now in the heaven with the Lord. Not because of his teaching on security salvation doctrine. He is in the heaven, because of his faithful, carried his fruits, he loved the Lord so much. He witnessed the gospel to thousands of souls for Christ. I admire Dr. John Rice. I did read his book - "The Prayer". Obivously, I can see his fruit that he was a truly godly man.

    I fear that many security pastors are on the way to hell, not because of their beliefs, their teachings. Because of their fruits and remain in sinning life. Christ told us, that we ought watch for their fruits(Matt. 7:15-20).

    We already see so many false teachers out there in the world today. I already seen so many different doctrines and false teachings. We have to be careful what we listening them. We are responsible to read and study Bible. The Bible have everything to answer the questions. Because it have truths.

    I am consider to order another book for you. You need to read that book.

    But, the most important thing for you, you need to study Bible by yourself to know the truths. Ordering the book, listening pastors, bible college teachers are not the answer. Bible is the answer that you nedd to know and to follow it.

    I rather follow the Bible than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    DeafPostTrib,

    So you think that people that teach security are going to die in their sin? I think that is just a bit over the top. Even before I studied the Bible and believed that one could lose their salvation I did not believe that they would necessarily go to Hell.

    The reason I would not read Corner's book is because his presentation. It may have been a good book, maybe not. All I know is that people that claim others will burn in Hell because of a slight difference in theology are a little too far out there for me. I love to listen to what others believe and try to learn from them. However, when someone is that hateful towards other people's views (on non-essentials) then that is an automatic turn-off. If he thinks he needs to lead me to salvation because I am a Baptist then that is just ignorant and truly unfair.

    By the way, just because a minister preaches eternal security does not mean they remain in a sinning life. I try my best to follow Christ daily. When I mess up (and we all do often) God convicts me. Anyone following the Lord should flee from sin.
    on interpretation and neither do you.

    Grace and Peace,

    Brooks:Fish:
     
  4. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Untangled, I agree that any book that says believers that disagree with a position are going to hell is usually off base. I believe in conditional eternal security and not eternal security. While I may agree with most of what is in the book, the statement about other believers is an extreme position and is assumely judgemental and wrong.

    A few months ago, there was a thread on BB that ask the question "Can someone that does not believe in eternal security go to heaven?" I considered the question so extreme that I didn't bother to read the posts. However, based on the question, it appears that there are people that have extreme positions on both sides of this issue.

    I would hope that book is not sponsored by any denomination or large group of believers.
     
  5. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    oops.. Double post.
     
  6. untangled

    untangled
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dr. Fuss,

    Thanks for your reply. My problem was not with the fact that someone believes something different. I agree with you as well. The fact is that I may be wrong about ES and the opposing side may be as well.

    Like I have said before I am willing to listen just not to some presentations. The book may be a good read but when someone sends it to try and convert me (when I am already saved) then there is a problem. I am not the only one that received this. Alot of Baptist pastors in the area did as well.

    By the way, to be fair I think he believes that only those that teach ES are going to hell..... I forgot to mention that earlier...
     
  7. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    I Don't Recommend This Book

    I purchased a copy of Mr Coner's book several years ago when he first released it (1997). I have examined it over the years. His arguments are the typtical anti-Eternal Security arguments, nothing new. I don't know about the newer versions of his book but the first edition failed to examine key eternal security passages such as John 6:38-39. He also does alot of quoting "popular teachers" (usually not scholars) and trying to refute them. Sometimes he does a good job in pointing out holes in their arguments, the rest of the time he just repeats his arguments against them.

    I could go on, and on...

    I don't recommend his book. If a person does not believe in eternal security they are much better served by "Life In The Son" by Robert Shank.
     
  8. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Christ's Sheep Follow Him

    ==That kind of statement is, at best, an outrage. No place in Scripture, and let me say it again, no place in Scripture are we told that one must hold a certain view on the believer's security in order to enter heaven. No place! Thus to say that a person who believes in, or does not believe in, eternal security is going to hell is adding to the Gospel (Gal 1:6-9). The fact is that God has used Godly men on BOTH sides of this issue in His service and Christians who have been on both sides will be in heaven (John Wesley, George Whitefield, etc).


    ___________________________




    ==That makes no sense. Above you said that those who believe in eternal security goto hell, now you are saying that "certain" eternal security teachers can goto heaven. That is a contradiction! If eternal security is a large enough heresy to send those who teach it to hell, then NO eternal security believer/teacher is saved. Period, no exceptions!

    __________________


    ==In other words, you believe Mr Rice is in heaven because of his works! That is unBiblical! The Bible teaches that salvation is by grace through faith apart from works so that NO MAN can boast (Eph 2:8-10, Rom 4:4-5, Jn 3:16, Gal 1:6-10, etc, etc, etc). Maybe the reason you have trouble with the doctrine of eternal security is because you still think a person has to do something to enter heaven. May I remind you that it is those who the Father gives to the Son who come to the Son, and the Son loses not one of them, but raises them up on the last day (Jn 6:37-39). May I also remind you that Christ's sheep follow Him and will NOT follow a stranger (Jn 10:3-6,26-27). May I again remind you that Christ's sheep NEVER PERISH (Jn 6:39, 10:28-29). Sheep follow the shepherd BECAUSE they are sheep not because they want to remain sheep. Salvation is of the Lord, He is the "author and perfecter" of our faith (Heb 12:2).

    _____________________________

    ==Yet another contradiction. Above you said, "pastors are go to hell for teaching on that. Probably he is right". Let's for one moment ignore the HUGE theological problems with that statement and get to another point.

    Your argument above is way too subjective to be taken seriously. Did you know that of all the Christians I know some of the most Godly men/women are those who believe in eternal security? I also know many Godly men/women who don't accept those teachings. Yet I know several people who don't accept eternal security yet live ungodly lives. That subjective statement contradicts your subjective statement. Yet it is true. So where do you go from there?

    You see it is not the issue of eternal security that determines how a person lives. What determines how a person lives is their relationship with Jesus Christ (John 14:23, 1John 3:9-10). If they are one of Christ's sheep they will follow Him (John 10:27).

    ___________________________
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Believing doctrines do not bring us to heaven. Religions do not bring us to heaven. Only through our faith upon Jesus Christ only.

    I am sure that many security pastors like SBC & IFB are in the heaven such as John Rice, etc. NOT because of their good works. Because of their fruits and faithful to the Lord.

    Dan Corners heavily criticize or attack against calvinism pastors and security pastors, he always talk on John MacArthur Jr. all the times. He saying, John MacArthur Jr. and all calvinism pastors are go to hell for deceive people.

    He have to be careful for being judging pastors.

    I do not consider John MacArthur Jr. is on the way to hell. Only God knows pastors' heart.

    BUT, Christ did warn us, that we ough watch out for false prophets(1 John 4:1-3; Matt. 7:15-20).

    Christ was not direct toward baptist pastors only, he speak of general false teachers of any religions.

    I already seen so MANY errors and twisting among baptist churches in America. Seriously, I mean it, no kidding. Early in my Christian life as baptist. I thought baptist churches always teaching with the truths. Till many years later, the more I found so many errors on baptist churches which not follow the Bible correctly.

    Don't you mind to explaining us what Matthew 25:14-30 mean to you? Is verse 30 speaks of temporarily or eternality? I would like to hear your comment on Matt. 25:14-30. Not only Matt. 25:14-30, also, there are so MANY passages in the Bible talk lot on conditional with warnings.

    That book is very good! :thumbs: He shows ton of verses from the Bible. Most verses are not from KJV, most are from NIV. I use KJV. But, there is no difference between NIV and KJV, both are same doctrine of salvation.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. rooster25

    rooster25
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deaf Pt

    What Is Your Issue W/ Those Verses In Matt25??? Thanks Rusty
     
  11. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==First it has been my experience with Mr Corner (his book, website, and email) that he takes alot of passages out of context (and teachers). A much more "balanced" approach to conditional security is Shank's "Life In The Son". Secondly Matthew 25:14-30 is a parable (vs14) thus you have to understand it as such. The one who had one talent did not use it to produce thus he was cast out. How does this apply to the issue? Those who do not bear fruit are cast into hell (Matt 3:10, Jn 15:6, etc). All believers will bear fruit (Matt 13:23, etc).

    Now, I would like you to answer two quick questions if you don't mind.

    1. How can you believe that salvation can be lost in light of John 6:37-40?

    2. How can a believer lose his/her salvation if they are predestined by God to be like Christ (Rom 8:29-30)?


    ==What you will find throughout his book (at least the first edition) is that he switches translations when it strengthens his position.
     
  12. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    Re-Try

    double post
     
    #12 Martin, Jun 9, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2006
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Parable? Christ doesn't saying it is a parable of Matt. 25:14-30. Matt. 25:14-30 talking about the judgment day, Christ shall judge our talents. A person who use 5 or 10 talents and use it, Christ shall saying to a person, "Well faithful servant'. Christ saying, if suppose a person have one talent, but hide it and not use it, Christ shall saying to a person, "You are a wicked and lazy servant'. Also, Christ shall send a lazy servant cast into the darkness bottomless. Is Verse 30 a temporarily or eternality? Is Matt. 25:14-30 apply to us as servants?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    ==Well I have never heard anyone doubt that it is a parable. In fact Dan Corner, on page 293 (chpt 13) of the first edition of "The Believer's Conditional Security" agrees that it is a parable...

    "Similarly, in Mt. 25:14-30 we read the Parable of the Talents"

    The passage starts off with the phrase, "The Kingdom of heaven will be compared to..." (vs1) and "for it is just like a man" (vs14). Jesus is clearly giving a parable even if He does not directly say, "Ok folks, here is a parable".

    ________________________________

    ==I think my reply answered this already. The person who does not produce is cast into hell (Jn 15:6). True believers produce some evidence or fruits (Matt 13:23). In other words the true believer in Christ does not bury his gifts.
     
  15. Martin

    Martin
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2005
    Messages:
    5,228
    Likes Received:
    0
    For DeafPosttrib

    For DeafPosttrib

    Now, I would like you to answer two quick questions if you don't mind.

    1. How can you believe that salvation can be lost in light of John 6:37-40?

    2. How can a believer lose his/her salvation if they are predestined by God to be like Christ (Rom 8:29-30)?
     
  16. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    I don't understand. If someone loses their salvation where else is there for them to go but Hell? Certainly not Heaven.
     
  17. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    AMEN, and to add, he doesn't produce in order to be saved, he produces because he is saved.
     
  18. Gershom

    Gershom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    If security is conditional, what's the condition, and who is responsible to maintain that condition?
     
  19. drfuss

    drfuss
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gershom writes:
    "If security is conditional, what's the condition, and who is responsible to maintain that condition?"

    I have not read the subject book, so I do not know how he defines conditional eternal security. My definition of conditional eternal security is, a christian continues to be saved conditional on continuing to trust Jesus as savior. A christian can forfeit their salvation be deciding to stop trusting Jesus as savior. As for respondibility, the christian is responsible for continuing to trust Jesus as savior.

    Martin writes to deafposttrib:
    "Now, I would like you to answer two quick questions if you don't mind.
    1. How can you believe that salvation can be lost in light of John 6:37-40?
    2. How can a believer lose his/her salvation if they are predestined by God to be like Christ (Rom 8:29-30)?"

    Salvation cannot be lost, but it can be forfeited by deciding to stop trusting Jesus as savior. The OSAS types keep talking about "lose you salvation" as though it could be something you don't know is happening or has happened. I suppose it is easier to debate against losing your salvation than against deciding to stop trusting Jesus.

    Concerning your question on how to handle the scriptures used to support OSAS, suggest you read my responses on the Forgiveness/Unforgivness thread now on page two of General Baptist Discussions of BB. The other posts on that thread provide a good context for understanding my conditional eternal security beliefs.
     
    #19 drfuss, Jun 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2006
  20. Helen

    Helen
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Helen2.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    11,703
    Likes Received:
    1
    "conditional eternal security" ???

    That's an oxymoron if I ever heard one! If something is conditional, it is not secure, let alone eternal or eternally secure!

    Romans 8:9 says the person who belongs to Christ is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Philippians 1:6 says He is faithful to finish the good work He has begun in us. Romans 8:28-30 says that this good work is to change us into the image of Christ.

    Now, if a person is born again, and therefore dead to sin (Romans 6), and part of the adopted family of God (John 1), he cannot be 'unborn.' That is the first thing. Secondly, he is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and his life is no longer under his own control (actually, it never was, as he was a slave to sin before) as he is a slave to righteousness. That means that righteousness, through Christ, by way of the indwelling Holy Spirit, governs his life, disciplines him, transforms him. There is no turning back. There is stumbling, slowing down, having temper tantrums, or whatever, but no turning back.

    It's kind of like jumping off a cliff. You can't fly back up. You can't be unborn to righteousness and born again (again) to sin!

    You cannot lose your salvation. You can lose your rewards. You might not hear 'Well done, good and faithful servant', but we are BOUGHT by Christ with His own blood. We had the option of agreeing to or disagreeing with the sale, unlike normal sheep, but once the agreement was made, that was that. If we wander, He finds and restores us. If we misbehave, He disciplines us.

    But when you are actually indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and a slave to righteousness (and all righteousness is in Christ, and therefore we are His slaves in that sense), what you decide at any given moment to 'believe' or not 'believe' is irrelevant. You are HIS. HE takes responsibility for you.

    One last note: to 'believe', when used biblically, is NOT 'intellectual acknowledgement'. The way the term was used both in the Hebrew and in the Greek was to put yourself totally in the care of, to trust fully with your life and everything you own or have control over. It implied a total giving up of oneself.

    Once you have given yourself up to Christ, that's it. You are killed as you used to be and born again in the Spirit and that is final. There is no 'conditional' attached to eternal security. Either you are secure in Christ or you are not in Him at all.
     

Share This Page

Loading...