Confess with the mouth (Ro 10:9)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bluefalcon, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    I know someone who takes this verse (Ro 10:9) as meaning that you need to believe in your heart and then pray in order to be saved. I'm thinking the "confess with your mouth" part of the verse is more in correlation to the principle behind Mt 10:32-33, i.e., confessing before men. Can one be saved who "believes" and "prays" but is not willing to confess Jesus before men? What about him who "believes" and "prays" but does not repent? I think the Bible says no.
     
  2. Allan

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    I'm not contending really either way, but reserve my opinion for now.

    What then in light of Mt 10:32-33 would it mean in Romans "...for with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation."

    It would appear in light of Matthew being used as the illistration of Romans would be:
    A person not saved UNTIL AFTER they confess before men that they are...well no, they couldn't make that declaration of "being saved" until after they confessed...now are are doing the round robin game.
     
  3. AresMan

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    If someone has lockjaw, would he be unable to be saved, because he couldn't "confess with [his] mouth"?
     
  4. Allan

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    There is no need to answer such a retort, because even YOU know how foolish that is.

    But... How do you render contextually this verse if calling out to God or praying is not what Paul was speaking to.

    ["...with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.."]
    Remember that 'and' means [in addition to what has been mentioned]
     
    #4 Allan, Mar 26, 2007
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  5. Bluefalcon

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    Is Paul not saying that true faith and public confession go hand in hand, just like James' expression that true faith produces works, and faith that does not produce works is not true faith, and those who have such faith are actually still damned.

    It may be that those who are unwilling to confess Jesus as Lord before men (cf. Mt 10:32-33, where the word for 'confess' is the same as that in Ro 10:9,10) are actually not saved. "Believing" and saying a "prayer" and then being unwilling to share with others that Jesus is your Lord would tend to indicate that the "belief" in the first place was disingenuous at best and probably in direct contradiction with the road to salvation as outlined in Ro 10:9-10.

    I say all this as one in an international setting where miscommunication of the message and pushing to "get people into heaven" can result in people "saying a prayer to ask God to forgive them of their sins" but never doing anything afterwards that reflects an interest in actually obeying God. Does God hear and act upon their prayer to forgive them of their sins? Is the Bible not clear that God does not hear such prayers?

    I'm not just offering this just to offer it. This is a practical issue involved in how we make disciples of all nations, and how we communicate the gospel message clearly so that people are actually believing, not just "believing", if you know what I mean.
     
  6. Jon-Marc

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    What about a person who can't talk? How does he/she "confess with the mouth"?
     
  7. skypair

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    Hi Bluefalcon :D

    My thoughts are that one who believes in their heart will 1) gladly tell God about it in prayer and 2) gladly tell others about it in confession.

    Is "the sinner's prayer" part of the "formula?" How about confession before men? Rom 10:9-10 indicates that there is some kind of verbal response required, does it not?

    If you tell God but don't tell men, what does that indicate about your salvation? Insincerity?

    If you tell men but not God, what does that indicate? Hypocrisy?

    So I do like that I was taught to pray the prayer of decision and I almost immediately went and tried to convert my best friend. Once I believed, it just wasn't in my heart to do otherwise!

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Mar 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2007
  8. lbaker

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    Wouldn't saying that a prayer, or a statement to either men or God, was required be adding a "work" to grace, and thus invalidate their salvation, as some have stated a belief that we should be immersed does?

    That would be "prayer salvation" or "confession salvation" or "saved by saying certain words salvation" rather than pure grace, just as much as saying one should be immersed is called "water salvation".

    Seems that way to me.

    Les
     
  9. skypair

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    Les,

    I think it is "fruit" of your faith, not earning of it. Confession is, in essence, obedience which is the "proof" of your belief. It "marks" your decision point much as Abraham's leaving Ur marked his trust in God.

    You wouldn't base your assurance of salvation upon what men say don't "do" rather than what God says to do in Rom 10:9-10 or 1Cor 15:1-4, would you?

    I know it's a "touchy" issue for some who can only look to how the RCC botched the faith and works issue but these same "some" have redefined a lot of things in scripture in their rush to replace the RCC. One of them was -- if RCC calls for totally "hands on" salvation then we must call for totally "hands off" salvation.

    skypair
     
  10. lbaker

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    So, should we say someone could be saved without any outward demonstration, by only an intellectual, internal, belief?

    Or, would salvation demand "fruit" as you called it?

    If so, would/could that fruit include immersion?

    And yes, I agree we have run so hard away from the RCC and works that we have perhaps even thrown the baptismal water out with the baby.

    Les
     
  11. DQuixote

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    Sometimes I wonder why they call this the "Baptist Board" ---- even under Baptist Theology and Bible Study, Baptists sound like those in Other Christian Denominations. Unbelievable that we all read the same scripture and then present multiple interpretations. How difficult is it to read John 14:6, then John 3:16-17, then Romans 10:8-13, for "the Gospel in a nutshell"? Why muddy those perfectly clear, clean waters?
     
  12. Allan

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    Aside from improper uses and practical applications to which we can render almost any view.

    How do you contextually interpret your own verse set forth of, "with the mouth confession is made unto salvation..."?

    If you contend it is illistrative of the Matthew verses, then do you also contend a person can not and is not truly saved unless they verbally confess God before men so that salvation is given to them.
    If that be the case then you will be likening those people to a 'works' based salvation in that they must actually physically do an Act or Deed, just as the Jews did in their religiousness.

    One must pray in order to be saved (whether verbal or internal) that they may repent and acknowledge their absolute dependency on and of Christ Jesus. You do not just wake up one morning and say "Wow, I think I'll go tell some people about this Jesus I suddenly know of." There is a time and a place between you and God and it is distinct and pin-pointable in our lives where we fall at the feet of our Saviour begging for His mercy, grace, and forgiveness.

    However I do contend that the Matthew passages is applicable in that it displays what has ALREADY transpired between themselves and God and is therefore the outward display or testimony of their NEW Nature and inclination. To testify! Acts 2:8

    And for the others:
    The what if they are mute argument is a sad attempt at ignorance. Do you really believe that your personal belief is from your actaul blood pumping heart unto righteousness and then confess with your saliva drooling mouth the confession unto salvation.

    No, they are words illistrative of the commonly understood facalties through which we do specific functions such as believe (heart) and communicate (mouth). They are synonymous with the process of salvation and is consistant with scripture with regard to
    It doesn't matter if it is a spoken prayer, sign language, written out, or thought but what does matter is that one beleives the truth (heart) and repents (mouth) unto salvation.
    Unless you repent you shall ALL likewise perish.
    whosoever believeth in Him shall NOT perish but ...
     
  13. Allan

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    No we haven't. We just got rid of a false and heretical doctrine of baptismal regeneration.
    You are baptized one you have become a believer. Plain, simple, and yet - oh so biblical.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    I remember vividly when I was saved and boy did I confess with my mouth!:laugh: I was quite obnoxious! It wasn't out of obedience either since, I hadn't read the Bible yet and didn't know that verse. Rather, I just couldn't contain myself. My husband was the same way. Maybe 'confessing with your mouth' is a natural (or supernatural:)) response to the filling of the Holy Spirit. It's really hard to fake that!
     
  15. Allan

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    I am inclided to agree with you.
     
  16. Bluefalcon

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    No. If a person believes, then he is saved, plain and simple. The problem is people don't understand what "believe" really entails, or at least their actions prove that they don't. If one believes and does not obey/repent, or, in this case, not confess God (=deny God), it shows his belief is not true and his faith is like the demons' faith, and he is not saved. If Abraham had failed to obey God and not offer his son Isaac, it would have shown that his faith was not true, and God would not have reckoned his obedience as righteousness. True faith has works that prove or perfect salvation, for faith without works, or faith without repentance from sin, is dead (=unsaved).
     
  17. lbaker

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    But, in ridding ourselves of the idea of baptism working separate and apart from faith, we seem to have gone to the other extreme and made immersion after belief into a meaningless ceremony.

    Les
     
  18. Allan

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    Meaningless ceremony?
    What religion are you from?

    1. Baptism is the first step of obedience in the life of a believer.
    2. Baptism is the sybolism of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ into which are partake.
    ----a. IMO, since we partake spiritually, it's representation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which actually is the one who places us INTO Christs D.B.and R. - old passed away behold the new.
    3. And it is the identifier of other believers as to the covenant relationship we have entered into with God and secondarily to one another. (much like a wedding band is a married couples symbol of their covenant)

    Meaningless? maybe where your from but not in any baptist churches I've been in, or pastored, preached, or there ministers churches in whom I know.
     
  19. lbaker

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    By meaningless I mean we have turned what was once a part of conversion into a "mere" symbol.

    Les
     
  20. Allan

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    Ok, explain your definition of 'mere' symbol.
     

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