Confusing teaching

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ingo Breuer, Jun 26, 2005.

  1. Ingo Breuer

    Ingo Breuer
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    While talking with several Baptist preachers and hearing some of them preach I have been confronted with a very confusing teaching that I don't find any support for in the Bible. So I would like to ask some of you to help me out and tell me where this teaching originates from and who first taught it.
    Their teaching about the "church" confuses me because a true church has to have a lineage all the way back to Christ or John the Baptist. They call John the Baptist the first "Baptist", as if he started the denomination. So these preachers kind of elevate John over Jesus. They teach the plan of salvation and church membership from Matthew 3 (John at the river). With lineage they mean that the church that Jesus started "extended an arm" and "duely organized" another one. Out of this church came another one and so on. So a church today has to come up with a lineage of local churches that goes back to Christ. If you have no lineage you are not a true church according to these preachers. I don't know about this teaching. The only people in the Bible who trusted in their lineage were the Pharisees and Jesus rebuked that. So why would preachers in the NT church disseminate a teaching like that? They also teach some strange things about "church authority". Only the church that can trace itself back to Christ has the "authority to baptize". Other than that you are like a "bullfrog jumping in the water" - one of the preachers said. Where does the Bible say something about authority. In Acts 8 Philip went ahead and baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch without going back to Jerusalem and "presenting himself to the church" and "having a vote" and "invest the preacher with authority". I asked one of the preachers about Acts 8 and he said he thinks Philip was kind of pre-authorized to baptize before he ever went into the desert. That's an assumption, but not a Bible fact.
    Can't we just trust the word of God and believe the Bible rather than putting forth a weird teaching like that. These preachers say that other Baptist churches are not a church at all because they don't have this lineage. This idea of lineage back to Christ seems to be a copycat of the Catholic idea of apostolic succession. Obviously, some Baptist got jealous over the Catholic teaching and turned it into "Baptist church succession". The only scripture evidence they give is Mt. 16:18. But it is a long way from Mt. 16:18 to the idea that you have to baptized by someone who has been baptized, by someone who has been baptized by John the Baptist. As if the title Baptist refers to the denominational name of today. Well, the Nazarene, the church of god, the church of christ, the church of the first born could play the same game. I wish we would quit playing games with the Bible and rather get serious.

    Where does the above teaching find its origin?
     
  2. exscentric

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    This sounds like Landmarkism and is sometimes based on a book entitled "TRAIL OF BLOOD" which is online if you do a search for it.

    You are right, if you aren't part of a church that has a pastor who's supposed lineage goes back to John the Baptist then they aren't in the true church. You must also be baptized in one of their lineage churches or you aren't properly baptized.

    In my experience it is usually in Independent Baptist churches and primarily pastors from a school in Missouri (Springfield?)

    Some on the board can correct or confirm, but I think it has, in the past, been in the Southern Baptist convention as well. Haven't run across it in any other groups though it certainly could be.

    I know Missionary Baptists also teach this.
     
  3. rsr

    rsr
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    Landmarkism had a strong following within the SBC during the 19th century (J.R. Graves being its most influential proponent) and there is still a residue of Landmarkism within the convention.

    Some of the Landmark churches withdrew from the SBC in 1905 to form the General Association, which later became the American Baptist Association, which exists today. Another group with Landmark origins is the Baptist Missionary Association of America.

    Some Primitive Baptists, Regular Baptists and United Baptists have a similar view.
     
  4. GODzThunder

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    I have heard of the Baptist Church being able to be traced all the way back to the apostles. I have never heard of tracing anything back to John the Baptist. His followers had to abandon him and follow Jesus (If I remember he even wished that, I must decrease so that he may increase). You have to trace to Jesus and Jesus alone!

    On a note the Trail of Blood does not trace the true Church all the way to John the Baptist. Though people who support this weird belief may use exceprts from that book I do not believe it was intended to match the Church to john the baptizer. I think it merely proves that the Baptist belief and doctrines have always existed and did not just spring out of the Catholic Church. (the book teaches that the baptist doctrine always existed because it is the biblical belief and that God preserved it in the time of the dark ages when the catholic church tried to stamp out other denominations).
     
  5. exscentric

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    FYI

    From Trail of Blood

    Dr. J. M. Carroll, the author of this book, was born in the state of Arkansas, January 8, 1858, and died in Texas, January 10, 1931. His father, a Baptist preacher, moved to Texas when Brother Carroll was six years old. There he was converted, baptized, and ordained to the Gospel ministry. Dr. Carroll not only became a leader among Texas Baptist, but an outstanding figure of Southern Baptists, and of the world.
    ---

    Under the strange but wonderful impulse and leadership of John the Baptist, the eloquent man from the wilderness, and under the loving touch and miracle-working power of the Christ Himself, and the marvelous preaching of the 12 Apostles and their immediate successors, the Christian religion spread mightily during the first 500-year period. However, it left a terribly bloody trail behind it. Judaism and Paganism bitterly contested every forward movement. John the Baptist was the first of the great leaders to give up his life. His head was taken off. Soon after him went the Savior Himself, the founder of this Christian religion. He died on the Cross, the cruel death of the Cross.
    ---

    10. The name "Baptist" is a "nickname," and was given to them by their enemies (unless the name can be rightfully attributed to them as having been given to them by the Savior Himself, when He referred to John as "The Baptist"). To this day, the name has never been officially adopted by any group of Baptists. The name, however, has become fixed and is willingly accepted and proudly borne. It snugly fits. It was the distinguishing name of the forerunner of Christ, the first to teach the doctrine to which the Baptists now hold.
    ---
     
  6. shannonL

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    Some call this teaching "baptist bride" only those who can trace their church back to John the Baptist are the "true bride" of Christ others although saved will just be guest at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
    Its pretty "wack". The school that taught this more than any other was Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Missouri. The Bible Baptist Fellowship International has some of its missionaries that teach this false view of the church. There is a good chance Ingo, that your preacher friends are Bible Baptist boys.

    Let me clarify that that view is no longer taught at the school in Missouri. It has faded over time. Yet there are some "old school" Bible Baptists that hold that silly view.
    I know this to be true because as a missionary in IFB circles I've ran into it before. Those same kind of folk also believe in "alien baptism". No not like a martian that needs baptizing. They believe that if you seek membership into their church and you come from another even "baptist" church if its not a "baptist bride" church then you have to be baptized again. Its nuts. Some of these churches also believe in "closed communion". In other words if your visiting their church and they are having communion you can't partake in it because your not a member of their church.
    Also, some Bible Baptist dont' like the term "universal church" they only believe in the "local church". Some will concede to the Scriptures that teach about the "body of Christ" instead of calling it the universal. However; some are very dogmatically against the idea of a universal church. I don't know what they do with Scipture but that is just how it is with some of them fellows.
    Hope that little bit of info helps. If I were you I'd steer clear of the pastors your referring to Ingo. They wont' be accepting of anybody unless they are dot for dot like they are. Not even other Bible believing baptists. Find a fellowship with "balanced" teaching.
     
  7. Bro. James Reed

    Bro. James Reed
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    Like the Primitive Baptists.

    Sorry, just had to get a little plug in there. :D
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

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    "John the Baptist" does not mean that himself was a baptist as religion name. Jesus called John, 'the baptist', because he baptized people in Jordan River.

    Early Church have no label name as religion organization. They were just followers of Jesus Christ.

    We all know that many religions come from Roman Catholic, as Catholic is the mother of the religions. But, Catholic is a false religion and pagan.

    I am proud being a baptist myself, not just because it is part of religion. Because I am a follower of Jesus Christ, and was baptized under the water completely by obey Christ's command.

    By the way, there is no religion in the heaven. All people in the heaven worship their Saviour - Jesus Christ. He is our Saviour and also creator too.

    Jesus Christ have no religion himself. He is God, Saviour, and creator.

    When, the end of the age occurs at Christ's coming. EVERY person of the world shall bow before Jesus, that they shall confess, that He is the Lord.

    Then the next age to come, there shall be no more religions over the world. All of us shall worship only one Saviour - Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our true religion forever and ever.

    Amen? Amen!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  9. Paul of Eugene

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    It isn't necessary to have physical succession to be a true Christian church. It is only necessary to have right practice and right doctrine. Every true believer is born from above, not from another. The same is true of every true church, although one can trace the physical body back at times.
     

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