Contract with God or in the Family of God

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by drfuss, May 6, 2013.

  1. drfuss

    drfuss
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    On another board, there is a minister who used to be Baptist and changed to become a United Methodist. He changed from ministering in an eternal security believing Church to a Wesleyan Arminian believing Church.

    He said the problem he sees with many eternal security believers is that they, in effect, believe they have a contract with God; whereas many Wesleyan Arminian believers consider themselves in the family of God, i.e. security as a business agreement vs. security by being in the Family.

    I have studied these type issues for many years, and this is the first I have seen it presented like this.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
  2. mactx

    mactx
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    The Bible says we are adopted into God's family.
    That ends that discussion for me.
     
  3. Yeshua1

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    And sealed by the HS, so we cannot undo that agreement, for we would have to be able to undo work of God that saved us!
     
  4. Thomas Helwys

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    Everyone by now knows where I stand, so no need for me to comment further.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    In Romans 2 Paul deals with the idea that God is in some sort of legally-bound contract so that no matter what - He has to take the chosen nation, chosen people of Israel to heaven - and not the gentiles.

    Paul says - that this is patently false and that God is not biased, no respecter of persons. NOR does Paul appeal to "arbitrary selection" as God's model in Romans 2.

    Notice where the Appeal is made in Romans 2, Romans 9, Romans 11? Is to "God is contractually bound to accept the Jews no matter what they do with Christ"? Look closely.

    In fact Romans 11 is devastating to OSAS because of the case it makes for those saved saints who "Stand only by your faith" saying that God is not even legally obligated to drag us in rebellion against him into heaven.

    HERE is the ultimate breaking of the contract - breaking off the "natural branches" in Romans 11.

    Notice the "IF you continue" clause so opposed to "legally obligated" ideas for holding the saved status.

    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
    20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
    21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

    22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

    That is not a 5 point Calvinist argument -- it is pure Arminian in the form of the appeal that is made.
     
  6. jonathanD

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    I think it's a poor analogy. It's not that WE have a contract with God, it's that the Som has a contract with the Father. Those whom he purchased WILL be his reward. He will keep them.
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    Covenant from greater, GOD, to lessor, us!

    God preedestined that ALL his saints will be glorifed one day, what can seperate us from the love of God in Christ...

    NOTHING!
     
  8. BobRyan

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    According to Romans 2 - neither we - nor Christ have maneuvered God into a legal corner - where now He must take both the wicked and the born-again to heaven.

    So in Matt 18 Christ reminds us of this fact with His illustration of "forgiveness revoked".

    "I forgave you ALL of that debt" is the up front claim.

    If ever there was a time for the legal-contract-bind in the form of "well then I guess I have to take you to heaven anyway no matter your lack of Christian graces after forgiving you all" - it was just at that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    The New Covenant between God and man is eternal, and God CANNOT break it!

    For the death of jesus as sin bearer provoded for its terms, and God freely offers etrnal life to those saved by Him, and they will NEVER perish, nor get lost again!

    It even buys eternal life for sinners, its just that will be forevershut off from the presense of God, so will experience the Second death, etrnally alive, but also eternally seperated from God!
     
  10. jonathanD

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    Certainly not...Isaiah 53, shows us that it was God's will to crush his son and to place on him the guilt of the true Israel.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    God made for us in the new Covenant unconditional promise, that whosoever received the gift of salvation to us in jesus, will never perish, always have eternal life!
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Both sides agree that Christ was made the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

    That is not the question.

    The question in debate is this -- in God's OWN decision "to So love the world that HE GAVE His only begotten son" - (Not a matter of a legal bind on God) did he then "make him to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 in such a way as to legally obligate himself to take EVEN those who "do NOT PERSEVERE firm unto the end"?

    According to the Bible - He did not.

    According to the Bible it is ONLY those who "PERSEVERE firm unto the end" that will be saved.

    Matt 24:13
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    Heb 3:14

    14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,



    Hence Romans 2.

    6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    That is the Gospel itself as Paul just stated.

    it works on the same "Forgiveness revoked" model as Matt 18

    Matt 18
    32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.




    It works on the same model as Romans 11



    Romans 11


    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

    Our Methodist/Wesleyan/Seventh-day Adventist/Arminian friends will notice that the language above is missing the "legally obligated to take those who do not persevere firm to the end" to heaven language.

    Just as we see in Ezek 18 - no change.

    The whosoever will factor is there - as well as the warning against being the rock-ground that sprin[SIZE=3]gs up "to LIFE" and [SIZE=3]rec[SIZE=3]e[SIZE=3]ives the Word of [SIZE=3]Life quick[SIZE=3]ly and with [SIZE=3]joy - but then [SIZE=3]later falls aw[SIZE=3]ay - dying - returning to the dead state Matt 1[SIZE=3]3.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=3]in Chr[SIZE=3]ist,

    [SIZE=3]Bo[SIZE=3]b[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

     
    #12 BobRyan, May 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2013
  13. Yeshua1

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    God, when he saves us, also has made sure that we will endure to the end, as its up to HIM to keep and perserve us, not outselves! he is the One at work in and thru us to make sutre we endure unto the End...

    Its His work in us, not our good works that make sure ALL saved will amke it!

    jesus said that he will rise up ALL the father gave to Him to be saved, he assurs us that ALL who come to Him to get saved by him, he will NEVEr cast out!

    Did Ellen white get a revelation that contridicts jesus?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Not a teaching in scripture.

    There is no "I know that God will persevere you" in all of scripture.

    In Matt 18 the lesson of Christ is not "I forgave you all that debt and then I persevered you to do likewise with your fellow servant".

    In Romans 11 the lesson of Paul is not "quite right you stand only by God persevering you and if He did not fail to persevere them - neither will he fail to Persevere you for no one is broken off or falls away from the root which is Christ".

    The teaching of Paul in Gal 5:4 is not "you cannot fall from grace you cannot ever be severed from Christ. Just remember that such things are impossible".

    The teaching of Paul in 1Cor 6 is not "be not deceived no evil that you are comitting today will have any affect on you - just keep on doing what you are doing for it is God that is persevering you in such things and should you ever do evil take no thought at all about the fiction that people who do such things do not inherit the kingdom of heaven".

    Those texts do not exist.

    Rather we have tons of warnings in scripture - urging us to persevere "or else".

    In the form "SO shall My Heavenly Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

    That lost person is not in danger of having his non-forgiven state revoked should he continue and persevere in being lost.

    The Bible always warns the saints away from failing to persevere "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified from it" - 1Cor 9.

    Phil 3 "this one thing I do" in a true pressing on, reaching forward that "I might attain to the resurrection" that is promised to the saints.

    1Tim 4
    15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
    16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

    No wonder the Baptist documents of the 1600's reject OSAS as unbiblical.

    ============================================

    5. That GOD before the Foundation of the World hath Predestinated that all that believe in him shall-be saved, (Ephesians 1:4, 12; Mark 16:16) and al that believe not shall be damned, (Mark 16:16) all which he knew before. (Romans 8:29) And this is the Election and reprobation spoken of in the Scriptures, concerning salvation, and condemnation, and not that GOD hath Predestinated men to be wicked, and so to be damned, but that men being wicked shall be damned, for GOD would have all men saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, (1 Timothy 2:4) and would have no man to perish, but would have all men come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) and wills not the death of him that dies. (Ezekiel 18:32). And therefore GOD is the author of no mans condemnation; according to the saying of the Prophet. (Hosea 13). Thy destruction O Israel, is of thy self, but thy help is of me.


    6. That man is justified only by the righteousness of CHRIST, apprehended by faith, (Romans 3:28. Galatians 2:16) yet faith without works is dead. (James 2:17)


    7. That men may fall away from the grace of GOD, (Hebrews 12:15) and from the truth, which they have received &acknowledged, (Hebrews 10:26) after they have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the HOLY GHOST, and have tasted of the good word of GOD, &of the powers of the world to come. (Hebrews 6:4, 5). And after they have escaped from the filthiness of the World, may be tangled again therein &overcome. (2 Peter 2:20). That a righteous man may forsake his righteousness and perish (Ezekiel 18:24, 26). And therefore let no man presume to think that because he hath, or had once grace, therefore he shall always have grace: But let all men have assurance, that if they continue unto the end, they shall be saved: Let no man then presume; but let all work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

    http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/helwysconfession.htm

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, May 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2013
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Strange, jesus was very sure that he would raise ALL saved by him on last day, NONE would perish...

    Ellen White denies that truth, as salvation is conditional, based upon how well we keep the sabbath, observe the law etc..

    Who is right here, God Incarnate, or a false prophetess?
     

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