Conversion of the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by JFS, Jul 1, 2003.

  1. JFS

    JFS
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    Clint wrote:
    First I want to say right off that if the board admin. does not want to allow certan people on the board at this time it is their perogative(sp?).

    How can they tell, based on some writen testomony, if a person has had a "conversion experience"? As a catholic I believe that I have had and still get a "coversion experience". For catholics it's not a one time only experinece. I dare say that if I study the Baptist Faith long enough that I could word it to the admins. satisfaction. Would I be lieing in doing so? I believe not and I would believe that most catholics that want to defend their faith have had the "conversion experience" that a baptist would be looking for to be able to say that that person is saved.

    God Bless you all

    John
     
  2. GraceSaves

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    I had a conversion experience this morning. Been having some troubling things on my mind yesterday. Asked a close friend to pray for me, prayed, went to bed. Got up, still feeling pretty much the same, but I went to Mass. And I have been refreshed, my faith strengthened, my spirits lifted, and I have recommitted my life to Christ. I usually do this several times a week. [​IMG] This is not to say that I am falling away from Christ (although I am certainly a sinner, who is in need of reconcilliation), but that my walk with Christ is full of hills, and thankfully He has patience to walk me through this hilly life. I am daily recommitted to my Lord by placing myself in His presence.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  3. Carson Weber

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    I had a conversion experience this morning.

    Grant, I suppose this means that you have a green light to continue posting on the board. ;)
     
  4. Brother Adam

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    I think alot of it has to do with a language barrier. "saved" to a Catholic has a different meaning to a life long Baptist. It took a heck of a lot of reading and a good deal of time for me as a Baptist just to begin to really understand where you, as Catholics are coming from. So I can understand that the board leadership, who I'm sure many of them don't have the time to really search out the Catholic faith, might not understand that Catholics are "Bible believing Christians" and are "born again".

    It really is two different worlds.
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

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    I don't agree, Adam. We need to look at it from God's point of view, which is preserved in scripture.....

    Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    Compare that with this...

    It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith, which all Catholics are obliged to believe and to profess, or else lose their own salvation, that all who die as non-Catholics are damned. Link

    And this....

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    With....168 It is the Church that believes first, and so bears, nourishes and sustains my faith. Everywhere, it is the Church that first confesses the Lord: "Throughout the world the holy Church acclaims you", as we sing in the hymn Te Deum; with her and in her, we are won over and brought to confess: "I believe", "We believe". It is through the Church that we receive faith and new life in Christ by Baptism. In the Rituale Romanum, the minister of Baptism asks the catechumen: "What do you ask of God's Church?" And the answer is: "Faith." "What does faith offer you?" "Eternal life."[54]

    link

    They can say what they want, but the RCC teaches that only RCCers are saved.
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    This is why it is so important to really dig and understand what statements like those mean. They were not written for the average non-Catholic Joe, like you and me, as the target audience in mind.

    Catholics confess that those who reject Christ, and thus reject Christs church, are damned. If you "know" the Catholic Church is the one true Church, and yet reject it, you are rejecting Christ. That makes sense.

    As in another thread- apart from Christ, the church isn't going to get you anywhere.

    Also, scripture uses the words "baptism for the remission of sins" and baptism was instituted by Christ. If someone rejects baptism, they cannot fully accept Christ. If your going to accept Christ as being God, you likewise need to accept his teachings, or you believe in a god that is imperfect- clearly not our Lord.

    The church was built with the idea in mind that there would be leaders- Christ appointed them, and that they would have authority- Christ granted it, and that they would be able to take disciplinary measures- Paul described it, and that it would be there as a pillar and foundation of truth- Paul said it, and that it would nourish and aid new believers and help mature believers in their walk- the Bible says it.

    If you start with the assumption that the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, you'll be able to find plenty of material that seems to point in that direction. Seems. But with the description given in Revelation (for one- the Vatican is a city on one hill, not 7), along with what we know from scripture (those who are not against us are for us, and those who are not for us are against us), it just doesn't add up to say Catholics are evil.

    Perhaps there have been follies in teaching throughout the millinia, but man is still fallible.

    Just my two cents though.
     
  7. Kathryn

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    As Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the teaching authority of the Church teaches:
    I have been saved:
    Romans 8:24 for in hope we were saved
    Eph 2:5,8 by grace you have been saved through faith
    2 Tim1-9 he saved us, called us, according to His grace.
    Titus 3:5 he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

    I am being saved:
    Phil 2:12 work out your salvation in fear and trembling
    1 Pet 1:9 as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

    I will be saved:
    Matt 10:22 he who endures to the end will be saved.
    Matt 24:13 he who perseveres to the end will be saved.
    Mark 8:35 whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
    Acts 15:11 we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
    Romans 5:9-10 since we have been justified, we shall be saved
    Rom 13:11 salvation is nearer now than first believed
    1 Cor 3:15 he will be saved, but only as through fire
    Heb 9:28 Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation


    God Bless

    Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.....the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
     
  8. Brother Adam

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    Thanks Kathryn,

    Sometimes simpler is better.
     
  9. Kathryn

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    Adam: You did a great job!
     
  10. Carson Weber

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    Hi Curtis,

    You wrote, "It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith, which all Catholics are obliged to believe and to profess, or else lose their own salvation, that all who die as non-Catholics are damned.

    You are quoting from a non-Catholic source. If you visit the main webpage of that website, you will find a link to "101 Heresies and Errors of John Paul II".
     
  11. Bro. Curtis

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    I know, but it is what they teach, isn't it ? Those who reject the RCC reject Christ's true church ? Why does it matter the source ? But since I do consider your opinion important...


    846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.


    Link


    To me, I don't need anything else. No other statement is needed,. The RCC teaches that only RCCers are saved.

    816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267


    The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268

    Link


    More arrogant, scripturally unsupported intimidation. The RCC teaches it has the grip on salvation.
     
  12. JFS

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    I would suggest that your interpretaion of the text is incorect. It says that through Baptism we enter the Catholic Church. So if you are Baptised you are a member. I did not see anywhere in your quote of the CCC that you had to be a member in full communion with the Catholic Church in order to be saved. The leaders of the Catholic Church accept all valid baptism. So the scope of who is a member of the Catholic Church is fairly broad. The Catholic church does not pick and choose its members like you suggest. It does not hold salvation over peoples head in order to get mindless followers. If you intepret the Bible the way you interpret the CCC I can see that you feel that there is no scriptural support for the position of the Catholic Church. You write posts that seem to have a tone that you hold a huge grudge against the Catholic Church. You seem to not be interested in finding out what the Catholic Church really teaches. You look for material that you can use and twist to further your distain for the Catholic Church. I hope and pray that you will stop this approach and find out really what the Church teaches. I would rather you hate the Church for what it really teaches rather than for what you think it teaches.

    God Bless you and please pray for me as I will pray for you.

    John
     
  13. Carson Weber

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    Hi Curtis,

    You originally wrote, "It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith, which all Catholics are obliged to believe and to profess, or else lose their own salvation, that all who die as non-Catholics are damned"...

    to which I responded with "You are quoting from a non-Catholic source".

    And you replied again with "I know, but it is what they teach, isn't it? Those who reject the RCC reject Christ's true church? Why does it matter the source?"

    You are confusing two separate issues to back out of a hole. The hole that you have backed yourself into is the hole of false witness by making it seem like Catholics believe all non-Catholics are automatically doomed to hell. To back out of this false representation, you wrote: "I know, but it is what they teach, isn't it? Those who reject the RCC reject Christ's trure church?"

    The "it" that "they teach" was, in your original post, that "It is a dogma of the Catholic Faith, which all Catholics are obliged to believe and to profess, or else lose their own salvation, that all who die as non-Catholics are damned", which is a separate teaching [that the Church doesn't teach] from the teaching that "Those who reject the RCC reject Christ's trure church," [which the Church does teach].

    Your slight of hand is crafty. You should simply state outright that you misrepresented the Catholic Church; that would be the honest thing to do.

    Not only that, but you again misrepresented the Catholic Church in your immediate reply above by quoting paragraph 846 apart from the corresponding information in paragraph 847, thus taking 846 out of context. Pargraph 847 reads:

    "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. [Vatican II, Lumen Gentium, paragraph 16]"
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Kathryn, I most surely hope you do not believe that work is by any means part of being saved.
    It is instead the result of the assurance that while one continues in Faith (sustained belief) we are to work with that assurance in doing good in this life. Works are not part of salvation, but spring forth out of the assurance of salvation.
     
  15. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:

    "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:10 -13

    St. Paul explains it very well...it is God which worketh in you.

    God Bless

    [ July 02, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  16. Kathryn

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    Yelsew:

    "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure." Philippians 2:10 -13


    Yelsew: Do you understand St. Paul when he talks about “working out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” ? He explains that as a Christian this means it is God which worketh in you. You don’t have to worry about St. Paul working his way to heaven or working out his own salvation apart from God, for it is God which worketh in him when he worketh out his salvation in fear and trembling. Pretty simple really.

    God Bless
     
  17. Yelsew

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    Let's see if I do.

    Paul is addressing Christians, people who have, through their faith, that quality called salvation, though salvation for them, at that time is but a promise, as with every living believer. Paul is telling them that because their salvation is sure, they must now do the works commensurate with the "sure thing", having to fear God alone and no other, with trembling in anticipation of the time when they shall be with God, face to face, a truly awesome thought.

    Like running for Governor, getting there is one thing, but once there, you do the work that the office calls for. Governors are not common laborers and do not do what common laborers do. They govern, doing what governors do. Paul is saying to those believers, "now that you are believers, do the works that believers do!

    How'd I do?
     
  18. Bro. Curtis

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    If you teach that one can lose salvation, then say that salvation can only be fully enjoyed in the RCC, then say those who reject the RCC reject Christ, you have fully supported what I said, and I misrepresented nobody.
     
  19. JFS

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    And that is my point. Show me in the CCC that states that you must be a memeber of the RCC to be saved. So you have misrepresented the Catholic teaching. The definition of "Catholic" does not meen RCC exclusively. Infact show me in the CCC that you have to submit to the authority of the Pope to be considered Catholic. The term "Seperated Brethren" shows that we consider you or anyone who is baptised to be a memeber of the Catholic faith just not a full memeber.

    God Bless you

    John
     
  20. Bro. Curtis

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    Dude, I posted it. Go back and read about those who refuse to enter in it and stay in it.
     

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