Convince me of Amillennialism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by RLBosley, Jan 22, 2015.

  1. RLBosley

    RLBosley
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    I currently am tentatively holding on to historic premillennialism. I formerly was dispry, pre-trib, pre-mill but I came to first reject pre-tribulationism and then shortly after that rejected dispensationalism entirely.

    As I said in another thread,

    As the title says, convince me of amillennialism, particularly the amill interpretation of Rev 20.
     
    #1 RLBosley, Jan 22, 2015
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  2. blessedwife318

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    I would be interested as well. I've have never held to the pre-trib view but have always considered myself pre-mill
     
  3. Greektim

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    Many Amills believe Rev 20 is not a chronological follow up to ch. 19. There is exegetical, intertextual, and theological reasons for this. That is the main thing for Rev. 20. I know that is not evidence, but allow me to make an argument later. This is just the foundation for understanding our interpretation of Rev. 20. That is the key.
     
  4. RLBosley

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    Right. And I can see their point here actually.

    Revelation is not chronological from beginning to end. "Then I saw XYZ" does not equal "Then XYZ happened chronologically". There are at least 3 recapitulations that I see though I know most amills say there are 7.

    I'm more hung up on the repetition of 1000 years and the straining that has to be done IMO to make the thrones in heaven not on earth and to make them for all believers not just martyrs.

    I guess this is also where we get into interpretive methods regarding the book of Revelation. As I understand it, most Amills view revelation through the idealist/allegorical interpretation. I can see benefit to this though again I am not there. I have come to see it through a historicist (maybe partial-preterist) view. I know there are a LOT of variations within this framework though and I'm becoming increasingly unsatisfied with it.
     
    #4 RLBosley, Jan 22, 2015
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  5. OldRegular

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    For starters ask your self what John saw in Revelation 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
     
  6. RLBosley

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    OK. He sees thrones and those sitting on them are given the authority to judge. It says "souls" and I know that seems to indicate that this is heavenly, like the souls under the altar of God in Rev 6, but souls doesn't have to mean that. For example, in Genesis Adam "became a living soul" - it doesn't mean that he was only a disembodied soul but that he came to life. Couldn't that be what this is referring to here? Also it specifies who it is that lives and reigns - those who were beheaded (martyred) for the gospel. I don't see how this can include all the saints through all the church age as Amillennialism says.
     
  7. convicted1

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    Open up your bible and read....:smilewinkgrin:
     
  8. RLBosley

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    [​IMG]

    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  9. convicted1

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    BTW, we're missing you over 'there', Brother RLB....
     
  10. RLBosley

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    Oh man, I forgot all about it! Thanks for the reminder. I'll stop by again soon.
     
  11. Greektim

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    Here is another Beale article that will help you w/ the symbolism. I wish you could read his book "John's use of the OT in Revelation." He has a short article on Rev. 1:1 and how it is helpful for the entirety of Rev as it indicates its interpretation.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    This is the argument that Ladd uses as Hoekema reports.

    Now consider John 5:28, 29:

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    And while you are thinking about that ask yourself: Who was the first resurrection and who has part in that resurrection?

    Romans 10:9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Read Revelation 20 again. It is not only those who were martyred who are said to reign:

    Revelation 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    If Revelation covers the period between the two comings of Jesus Christ it is reasonable to expect that the beast will be present in some form that entire period!
     
  13. OldRegular

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    Over there! Over there! The Yanks are coming over there, and they won't be back until it is over, over there!
     
  14. RLBosley

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    Thank you brother. I'm slowly making my way through the one you emailed me. He has some good points.

    I am having to watch myself from instantly disagreeing when he contradicts the dispensationalism that I grew up with. It takes a while to get that stuff out of your system, like poison.

    Yes and I see why you use that to support a general resurrection, but the text does say that there is a resurrection of life and one of damnation. Perhaps they are separated by 1,000 years as Rev 20 says?

    Clearly Christ is the first one to have ever been resurrected. However the first resurrection in Rev 20 is of those who are resurrected and given authority to judge and reign with Jesus. There isn't any mention in Rev 20 about Jesus' resurrection.

    Hmm. I don't know. It seems to me like all the clauses (for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God, had not worshipped, had not received the mark) all describing the one group of people who were beheaded.

    I agree with that.

    That was my first thought too! :laugh:
     
  15. convicted1

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  16. kyredneck

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    :thumbs:

    5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood;
    6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1

    9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
    10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth. Rev 5

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20

    5 And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.
    7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
    10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
    12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
    20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22
     
  17. kyredneck

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    1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    2 to proclaim the year of Jehovah`s favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
    6 But ye shall be named the priests of Jehovah; men shall call you the ministers of our God: ye shall eat the wealth of the nations, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. Isa 61

    5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine:
    6 and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19

    4 unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
    5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
    7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
    8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God`s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
    11 Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul;
    12 having your behavior seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 1 Pet 2

    1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.
    2 And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Ro 12

    13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification. Ro 6

    11 Faithful is the saying: For if we died with him, we shall also live with him:
    12 if we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we shall deny him, he also will deny us:
    13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2

    17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. Ro 5
     
  18. kyredneck

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    8 Therefore in one day shall her plagues come, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judged her.
    10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
    17 for in an hour so great riches is made desolate. And every shipmaster, and every one that saileth any wither, and mariners, and as many as gain their living by sea, stood afar off,
    19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. Rev 18

    Literally 60 minutes or 24 hours? No. Her destruction came suddenly, quickly.

    Literally 1000 years? No. A long period of expansion and prosperity for the Church.
     
  19. OldRegular

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    Read the text again!

    John 5:28, 29:
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Notice Jesus Christ states that the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

    The hour is. That is one time period, the verb IS is singular.

    In the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. In that one time period, whether it is an hour or a minute all the dead shall hear His voice.

    Now recalling what God reveals through the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians it is obvious that those who are the Redeemed will come forth with a glorified and incorruptible body: The resurrection of life. Paul does not speak of the state of the resurrected body of those who are among the lost: The resurrection of damnation.

    1 Corinthians 15:42-44
    42. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43. It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.



    Consider the Scripture:

    .Revelation 20:4-6
    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    First assume that your remark about the martyrs is correct. It can be argued that John is talking about two groups of people here. The first identified as: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: The second identified as the martyrs: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus

    My opinion is that those described as: them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands can include all the redeemed. Recall that the Book of Revelation is written in symbolic language. Also throughout history most of those who identify with Jesus Christ have undergone severe persecution.

    In verse 4 we have a picture of the Saints reigning with Jesus Christ. In verse 5 we read: This is the first resurrection. Assuming that statement refers to those in verse 4 I ask you what is the first resurrection of the Believer. Consider John 5:24-26:

    24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


    Or John 3:3

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    It can be argued that the first resurrection of the believer is the spiritual resurrection described above and also in Ephesians 2:1-8.

    In verse 6 I still believe that that the reference is to those who have part in the First Resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Redeemed. But in either case I will present in a later posts two interpretations of the above passage.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    James P. Boyce’s Interpretation of Revelation 20:4-6.

    The following view is by, James P. Boyce, a Baptist theologian of the 19th century, and one of the founders of the Southern Baptist Seminary. The information is excerpted from Abstracts of Systematic Theology, page 458ff.

     

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