Could Judas Iscariot be the antichrist?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Denise Swiney, Jul 22, 2003.

  1. Denise Swiney

    Denise Swiney
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    Hello,
    I know no one can know for sure who the antichrist is, and being a Christian it makes no difference to us, in light of salvation,eternity and so on. It is interesting to discuss though.

    I came upon this theory in my Dispensation class. Must say, it made for an interesting study. Paul calls the antichrist, the "Son of Perdition". This name is only used two times, in Scripture. It is first used by Christ of Judas, and then of the Antichrist. Now why was Judas called the son of perdition? Was he a child of satan or indwelt by satan?
    Jesus says in John 6:70-71 "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
    Now Judas is the only person in Scripture that is said to have gone to "his own place". Keeping that in mind, Revelation 11:7 says that the Beast that slays the two witnesses ascends from the abyss. In Rev. 17:8 states that the Beast was, and is not, and yet is.
    So Judas was when he was here with Christ, when he hung himself and went to his own place he was not, and if Judas is the antichrist during that time he will be once again.

    I am not saying that this theory is fact, only that it does make very good sense. I am curious what others thoughts on this are.

    Thanks
    Sis Denise [​IMG]
     
  2. Johnv

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    No, I don't think Judas was a or the antichrist. Judas was a man, like any other. He made a mistake, and a big one at that. When he realized his mistake, he was wrought with dispair, so much so that he would rather die than live with the shame. He took no pleasure in his deed. This doesn't sound like antichrist qualities.

    Funny, though, that God allows his will to unltimately be done in spite of Man choosing his will over God's.
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Paul calls the antichrist, the "Son of Perdition".

    scripture reference please.

    Also, where in scripture is the "anti-christ" called the Beast?
     
  4. Ron Grove

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    John 17:12 (ho uios tes apoleias) and 2 Thess 2:3 (ho uios tes apoleias). I simply verified that the greek is indeed the same for both before continuing.

    It isn't of course, but for many reasons, for almost two thousand years, futurists have equated the singular reference of antichrist in 1 John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." with the beast of Revelation and the "man of sin..., the son of perdition". It is, therefore, a legitimate question.

    I would go on to answer why I do not believe this to be the proper interpretation of Rev 17:8, but I got called back into work :mad: . I will try again later if I'm still conscious...


    In Christ,
    Ron
     
  5. Grasshopper

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    anti-christ=son of perdition? Still no proof of an individual named anti-christ.

    "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

    Notice the phrase "last time". Whoever he was he lived in the 1st. century.
     
  6. Pastor Larry

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    In Scripture, this is said to be the will of God.

    As for antichrist and the beast, there is every reason to believe that the beast is the antichrist. The similarities noted throughout the NT bring the conclusion of identification of hte man of sin, the antichrist, and the beast. Notice in the first century that John said he "will come" (future), meaning that he was not necessarily on the earth in the first century. That shows Grasshopper's understanding to be wrong.

    As for Judas, he is not the antichrist because he is dead. The antichrist will be a living person, who will convince the Jews that he is the Messiah and will strike a peace treaty with them. Judas is wholly unable to do that.

    It is speculative and non-productive to try to identify the Antichrist. There is simply no way to know.
     
  7. Denise Swiney

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    As I stated earlier Im not saying this theory to be fact. The thing that is interesting is this. What place did Judas go? Where is that place, and why is he the only one to go there.



    Grasshopper asked for scripture refrence to Paul calling the antichrist the son of perdition.
    He doesnt use the term antichrist, he uses the term man of sin. Which most believe this to be the antichrist. 2Thessalonians 2:3

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the SON OF PERDITION. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
    so whom other could the man of sin be but the antichrist?

    Now on to John 6:70-71 "Have I not chosen you and one of you twelve and one of you is a Devil?
    Quoting from the book Dispensational Truth pg119
    Clarence Larkin writes.
    In refrence to John 6:70-71
    "He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon; for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the twelve. In no other passage than this is the word "Devil" applied to anyone but to Satan himself. Here the word is "diabolus," the definite article is employed, and it should read- "and one of you is the devil." This would make Judas the devil incarnate, or the mystery of iniquity and explains why Jesus in John 17:12, calls him the "son of Perdition". End Quote

    Anyway again Im not saying this is correct. Only that it is logical that Judas was here, he died and went to hiw own place, and if he is the son of perdition could possibly come again.

    by Larry
    It is speculative and non productive to try to identify the antichrist. There is simply no way to know.

    I agree, but it is an interesting topic to discuss! There are many more topics of worth we could be discussing. I hope in the future to do just that! :D
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    Notice what John says:

    Revelation 1

    1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
    2 who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw.
    3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

    These show that "pastor" Larry has a weak understanding of Eschatology. He must fit things into a futurist system, therefore he does some funny things with the meanings of "shortly" and "at hand".
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    Actually it shows that you don't have a grasp on how these terms are used. You are depending on misdefined terms to support your point. We have shown many times before how your contention on this point is unfounded. I don't have to "fit things into a futurist system." They fit in just fine. All I need to do is read the text without presuppositions or the need to defend something.
     
  10. Wisdom Seeker

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    According to the Word, Satan entered into Judas after he had eaten the sop.

    John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
    [27] And after the sop Satan entered into him Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly


    The word "Perdition" means
    1.a. Loss of the soul; eternal damnation. b. Hell.
    2. Archaic. Utter ruin.

    John.17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    This scripture seems to be speaking of Satan. I am not certain whether the man who was possessed by Satan was who this reference is referring to. It appears that it could be, but could also be pointing to Satan who entered into him.

    2Thes.2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    This scripture seems to be speaking of Satan as well.

    I do not think that Judas Iscariot is the anti Christ, but the tool Satan used.

    Wouldn't the opposite of Christ, anti-christ if you will be Satan? And don't both of the references in the Bible that use the term "Son of Perdition" seem to point more to Satan than the man Judas Iscariot?

    Usually when I research something it becomes clearer, but I'm afraid it's almost as muddy as before I looked into it.

    What do you think?
     
  11. Grasshopper

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    Actually it shows that you don't have a grasp on how these terms are used.

    Please enlighten this poor fool. How are we to interpret words like soon, at hand, and quickly? And while your at it what do last days and end of age refer too? What was Jesus refering to when He said this to His disciples:

    27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
    28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    there are some of them that stand here,

    Does that not refer to the disciples? Apparently not. So who is He talking about that shall not taste death?

    Show me how I mis-use these words. Show me how the simplest words mean something other than the obvious. Be careful, these same words are used in the Old Testament to predict things as well.

    If Jesus can't get the timing right then He can't get anything right.
     
  12. Me2

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    Judas was a precursor of the antichrist.

    2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

    an antichrist is one who doesnt confess that Jesus christ is in their flesh. they substitute anything to replace the anointing of christ or presence of Christ within them. they worship things insted of the person that is within them.

    this is a "professing christian". yet thay do not believe by faith, that Jesus is "in them",or "in their flesh"

    1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    1Jo 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    1Jo 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

    could this be the "second coming" of Jesus many religious believers look for?

    Me2
     
  13. Wisdom Seeker

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    I'm sorry, did I stumble into a different topic? I thought this thread was about Judas Iscariot being the antichrist?
     
  14. Me2

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    the antichrist, whether a system, an individual or a real or an imagined image..it is all manufactured from our old mans spirit.

    it is the spirit of the old man...adam, the flesh, our carnal nature.

    there are only two natures on this earth..

    that of the old and that of the new.
    adam or jesus.

    remember paul and his discovery of the law of the flesh and the law of the spirit. he discovered a war within his members. his old flesh nature and christ within battling for control of his will.
    (rom 7:20-23)
    his old man (anti) battling the new sprit (true christ)

    Judas was under seige by the same war of the two natures within him.

    as it is today, it can be detected by those not being able to express from their spirit that Jesus is within them. lip service is one thing, yet the spirit of antichrist will not allow one to believe that Jesus has taken up residence "within" the believer and truly believe that Christ is in "their flesh"..

    their old man (antiChrist) is still sitting on the throne of the carnal spirit of the believer. the selfsame spirit that will be dethroned...

    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

    when christ sits on his rightful throne in the heart of the believer, he announces himself to the believer as lord..and the spirit of antichrist is revealed and rendered powerless...
     
  15. Wisdom Seeker

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    Are you saying then that Satan didn't actually enter into Judas when he ate the sop like the Bible says, but it was some inward struggle with Adam?

    Are you saying that Adam is what a person is inside before salvation and then Jesus afterwards?

    Do you think the anti-Christ is just an idiology?

    I sware sometimes the more that I discuss something, the less clear it becomes to me. :confused:
     
  16. Me2

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    Wisdomseeker,

    dont know about satan entering ie, possession..or whether there was suggestions as in a conversation of persuasion..makes me wonder though.

    and we possess the same spirit of adam or the carnal flesh..with many, many years of experience.

    antichrist link

    the above link is one of the best Ive read about the antichrist lately..very indepth

    Me2
     
  17. Wisdom Seeker

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    I'm just going by what the Bible says.

    I tend to take it pretty literally.
     
  18. Me2

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    Its an impossibiity to take prophecy in the bible whether it be OT or NT 100% literally.

    many will state that they do, yet within their explanations..they fail to explain the figurative or allegorical statements of prophecy.

    no matter who claims it, or who espouses to that notion of 100% literal interpretation. some will accept statements figuratively..OK
    so that now it depends on who's interpretation of what figurative symbols, that is being spoken of means. nothing less.

    even jesus claimed that what he said to the crowds were riddles..parables
    mat 13:10-17
    mat 13:34-35
    mar 4:11-13
    mar 4:33-34

    was the true message supposed to be hidden from
    those not intended to hear its true message?
    yes..and the parables that were told to the crowd in a method that could be heard literally yet they were to be reinterpreted as they were allegorical and chocked full of symbols..

    when jesus explained to his disciples the parable of the sower and the seed.. did he explained it to them in another parable.?..yes

    the key is inside one of Jesus parables. if Satan is not divided, he will not fall.(mar 3:23) the system of the antichrist was innocculated with a virus per say..its called the word of God. believers that read the word of God and attempt to define its parameters 100% literally are placed in derision.even against themselves

    so does this mean that there are strength in numbers. maybe..if you can find enough commentries and theologians to back up the method of espousing to 100% literal interpretations of Gods word..I guess their house will stand a few more minutes before it enevitably comes crashing down...

    so I guess were back to the thread..

    was Judas the, or an antichrist?
     
  19. Denise Swiney

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    First of all before I get into the responses that I had orginally prepared I want to say this.

    #1 Yes there is a spirit of antichrist, and yes the world is full of antichrists today. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth the that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    John 4:3 And every Spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is the Spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    #2 There is a literal antichrist which is coming to this world. He is not a system he is the devil incarnate. The mystery of iniquity, the abomination of desolation.
    To believe otherwise is a huge error. Which I might add would please the devil greatly if we only believe the antichrist was a system.
    2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (whose time the antichrists time)
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (church)
    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose comoing is after the working of Satan with all powers and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie: (The antichrist and his iniquity the spirit of antichrist also (Both)) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    Wisdom seeker I had a response to your other questions from earlier, which I do intend on answering. I just felt it was more important to explain that the antichrist is both. It is a system and a spirit, but it is also a literal person.
    Hipe this might make things more clearer for you!
    God Bless you all.
    Sis Denise [​IMG]

    ps Im still trying to learn how to make quotes I havent figured it out yet but when I do it will be easier for me to respond.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    It is unfortunate that you brought the word "fool" into this. That really has not place here. I have in many places discussed these words. A good discussion is available in many places. I would recommend R.L. Thomas's commentary on the book of Revelation as a good place to get some info on this.

    Assuming you are referring to Matthew 16, the context makes it pretty obvious. Six days later, they saw the son of Man come in the glory of the Father at the Transfiguration. If you disagree, then the burden of proof is on you to show how any other event qualifies for it. There is simply no historical return of Christ. It is future.

    Why not?? They were standing there and some of them saw the Transfiguration. When the obvious makes good sense, go with it.

    Been there. Remember these words are Greek words. Study their usage and their lexical domain. Study their usage apart from your presuppositions about what they must mean.

    None of these words are used in the OT to predict anything. The OT is written in Hebrew.

    [qutoe]If Jesus can't get the timing right then He can't get anything right. [/QUOTE]He did get the timing right. It seems that you have simply misunderstood it because you insist on your timeline.
     

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