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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by go2church, Mar 1, 2005.
This came up in the Bible versions forum, so I brought it over here for discussion.
This is what I said:
Originally posted by go2church:
The Council for Keeping Women Under the Control of a Man and all the Dobsonites have told many what to believe about this topic rather then trusting the people to make up their own minds (what a concept!). TNIV.
I do not appreciate that remark. I don't "control" my wife, however we believe it to be biblical for me to be the spiritual leader in our home.
What if she came to you tomorrow and said that she felt the Holy Spirit calling her to be a pastor, what then?
Does your wife believe you should be the spiritual leader of the home because that is what she has been "taught" or because she woke up one day and said "Hey, you know I've been thinking, I think you should be the spiritual leader in our home"?
The Council for Keeping Women Under the Control of a Man is a bunch of evangelical busybodies with nothing more to do then tell other people what they should believe.
I guess what you call "spiritual leadership" I call control.
Then this is what Paul33 said:
Your bias is obvious with your continued attack on the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
TNIV has made sloppy work of translating the original languages in an effort to appease what apparently is nothing less than "man-haters," if we can go by your language.
This bias goes to the root of God's creative order and attacks it.
The fear of the NIV crowd is that we know that ultimately the TNIV is meant to replace the NIV. When they stop publishing the NIV, that will be a real shame.
I don't know of any "man-haters" associated with the TNIV and I am pretty sure that is not MY language. I said that there are those that don't get the whole "man" means everyone, even women. Don't think that makes them "man-haters" Let me show you what I mean....
"If everyone is what it means, why doesn't it say that here in the text?
How do you know it means everyone, it says "man" doesn't it, does the bible means what it says or not?
The Greek context tells us it means everyone, oh? So why doesn't it say that in the text that I am holding now if that is what the context means?
Are you saying I am going to have to learn Greek to understand the bible?"
It sounds somewhat silly I agree (and have now said on more then one occasion), but this is the reality that we live in, like it or not.
Please define the root of God's creative order?
Looks like you are having a conversation with yourself.
Why the attacks on CBMW?
Just wanted to give everyone the context of how the converstion develped.
I view the Council as a bunch of busybodies that wish to keep women under the control of a man. Obviously I don't agree with that so whenever they come up, as they did in the TNIV case sense they were one of the biggest anti-TNIV folks out there, I view it as a chance to counter their thinking (if you could call it that).
BTW, where were they when the NLT came out, if followed the same translation guidelines as the TNIV? What a bunch of hypocritical opportunists!
If my wife said she was called to be a pastor, I'd have to ask her what her qualifications were, and when did she become the husband of one wife?
The wife is to rule the home, but the husband is to make the spiritual decisions concerning the direction of the home inregards to how to serve the Lord, when, where, and who to lead them in worship.
Is "The Gospel of John" (the movie) taunted by many as "biblical" using the tniv as it's source? Whichever source, did anyone else notice the plastic cup the ruler of the feast was given the "wine" that Jesus had done the miracle in changing the water?
Well hmmm...I've worked for and with members of the Council on matters for the Council. I can guarrantee these are not simple busybodies, but people devoted to strengthening the body of Christ. Have you read their primary text? Do you get their journal? Have you read extensively on all sides of this issues?
The text is replete with sound theological conversation about roles and how different we are designed to fulfill those biblical roles. They aren't trying to keep women under the heel of men, they are trying to counter radical feminism which devalues the importance of roles as given by God in the Bible. To suggest otherwise is misrepresenting their work.
As for your loaded question about my response to my wife coming to me as telling me she is called to pastor, I say Plain ol' Ralph did a tremendous job responding to the query! What are her qualifications?
Anyhoo...on the other matter of the TNIV, I have used a free copy I got as a member of ETS for several years as I studied both Greek and Hebrew in seminary and found the translation to be lacking in major areas. Particularly in their abuse of translators freedom to ignore or reinterpret various phrases and participles. I don't think the TNIV is an awfully good translation, and I'll leave it at that.
I have spent alot of time reading from the website of the Council (does that count?), needless to say, we don't agree on much. But I will go and take another look.
I would very agree that their position is most definately not based on control. This article http://www.newfrontiers.xtn.org/magazine/volume2issue9/article_index.php?id=269 gives a good summary of their position
Please check your private messages.
I am not familiar with the council, but didn't Paul state when he said that a woman should not speak that this was his own personal opinion and not from devine revelation?. I never belonged to a church that had a female pastor, this is from my own personal choice. However my church does not reconize female pastors. I have seen in the bible over and over again that JESUS reconized women as more of an equal than others during the time of HIS ministry on earth. Jesus did not tell the woman who touched the hem of HIS garment don't touch me because she had an issue of blood, or make Mary leave while HE was teaching the apostles, her being there in those days was a no no. JESUS revealed who HE was first to a female, the woman at the well, and the first people to see the risen CHRIST were women and HE told them to go and tell what they had seen. It is just to me that women roles were about to change somewhat, however I am not keen on female pastors, but what if some of them were called, I mean I really don't know, but what if?. -------------------yours in Christ
Knox, Wade, Crumpler and others have led you astray- as well as many others out there in Texas. Listen to the truth from some of these folk on here who are interested in learning and obeying the Word of God, and not re-writing it.
Who are Knox and Crumpler?
Wade, I think is a reference to Charles Wade - Executive Director of the BGCT, who I have had dinner with on more then one occasion, prayed with and greatly respect. I wouldn't classify him as uninterested in "learning and obeying the Word of God". Of course being a Clemson fan I wouldn't expect you to understand that!
This is just an ad hominem. Where is your biblical support for attacking their position?
BTW, I was once a strong feminist (did not take my husband's name, supported feminist rights, was pro-choice, etc) and I find the biblical support for the CBMW's views compelling.
No. he said it was because of God's creative design and the woman's propensity to be more easily deceived, and those words were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Paul said that it was his opinion that is it better not to marry. He did not say that was his opinion about women not speaking.
I don't have the problem that others don't agree with my thoughts, my wife has cured me of that over these last 15 years, it is the holier then thou tone that they take. If you don't believe exactly like us, you must not be interested in being biblical. Nothing could be further from the truth. They seem so self-serving, much more interested in controling the role women will play in the church and in society in general.
"being a Clemson fan I wouldn't expect you to understand that..."
You cut me deep, go2church- and My Blood Runneth Orange!
I take it we are not on the same side of that fence either? As long as you are not a Gamecock, I can tolerate your moderate bent!!