Covenant Theology Or Dispensational?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Rippon, Feb 25, 2014.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon
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    Someone on the BB has made the claim that most Baptist churches hold to Covenant Theology. He went on to say that most are not Dispensational.

    I find that claim absurd. Most Baptist churches are not Calvinistic. A minority are Calvinistic or Reformed Baptist. The latter would adhere to Covenant Theology.

    Of course there are subsets of Progressive dispensationalism and New Covenant Theology.

    Now just because a given congregation has a church covenant has absolutely nothing to do with Covenant Theology -- that is an irrelevancy.

    So I am asking folks here to state whether their church is Covenantly-oriented or Dispensationalist.

    Let me know where your church stands on this issue please.
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    Yea it was an incorrect claim. I would be considered some hybrid of dispy.
     
  3. prophet

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    Ours is non-dispy, and non-covenant.

    I think that most of the IFB churches, that we interact with, are some kind of dispy hybrid. They are usually pre-trib.
     
  4. kyredneck

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    The SB church I was raised in 60 yrs ago was staunch Scofield brand Dispensationalist. At least once a month was devoted to an exhilarating, captivating, emotional, edge of your seat, prophetic sermon on how we are in the last days and how Israel, the chosen people of God, will be at the center of it all when Christ returns the second time. I used to love those sermons when I was young and dumb. Those sermons were by far the most entertaining.

    I'm pretty sure that every SB church in that Boone's Creek Association was just as Dispensationalist as the church that I grew up in.

    I had never heard of Covenant Theology until my wife and I became active in a non-denominational Bible Church many years later. This church was where we became acquainted with the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace. Thank you Lord.
     
    #4 kyredneck, Feb 26, 2014
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  5. convicted1

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    Staunchly amil, spiritual resurrection, covenant theology, partial preterist believer, as is my home church. I am a five pointer and they're probably a max one pointer, the "P"....
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

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    I'm finding that these churches today want to be neutral in their stance on what they consider a contrivercy ....this and soteriology. They just want HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY sheeple comming and putting money in the plate. Forget doctrine .....cant we all just be Christians together? We will all hold hands together, sing songs about Jesus and blend into the Woodwork of life......Hoooo hummm.
     
  7. saturneptune

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    Scripture talks a lot about idle babble, busy bodies, and chatter. This post is riddled with error. First of all, Calvin and Covenant do not always go together. There is no parallel. One might say they usually go together, but that is the problem with those who make absolute statements. As I said many times, to which you do not listen, both denominations ( SBC and Presbyterian) have covenant theology stances. I have served in one or the other all my life. Many SBC churches around here believe in covenant theology. It has nothing to do with a church covenant, and you misstated (an alternative term to liar) that I got the two mixed up. To answer your silly question, our church is covenant. It has been since 1974. We are a SBC church. Any more questions or misstatements? It really gets old, you making claims on experiences you never lived.

    The Bible is one unified book in harmony. It is not divided into eras of time. This is not the real issue to you. The real issue is to push your ecumenical agenda and bash the origins of the Baptist faith.

    Here are a few verses about the motivation behind idle chatter.


    Ephesians 4:29

    Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.




    Ephesians 5:4

    Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.




    2 Timothy 2:14-16

    Remind them of these things, and charge them before God not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth. But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,




    Titus 1:15

    To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.




    Matthew 12:36

    I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,




    Proverbs 16:28

    A dishonest man spreads strife, and a whisperer separates close friends.




    Proverbs 15:28

    The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.




    1 Timothy 6:20

    O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,”




    1 Timothy 5:13

    Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.




    Proverbs 20:14

    Whoever goes about slandering reveals secrets; therefore do not associate with a simple babbler.




    Proverbs 15:4

    A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.




    Proverbs 10:8-10

    The wise of heart will receive commandments, but a babbling fool will come to ruin. Whoever walks in integrity walks securely, but he who makes his ways crooked will be found out. Whoever winks the eye causes trouble, but a babbling fool will come to ruin.




    Exodus 20:16

    “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.




    James 3:6

    And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.




    Romans 1:29

    They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,




    2 Timothy 2:15

    Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.




    Matthew 5:43-48

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?




    Proverbs 31:9-10

    Open your mouth, judge righteously, defend the rights of the poor and needy. An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels.




    2 Corinthians 12:20

    For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish—that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.




    Matthew 6:1-34

    “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.




    James 1:1-27

    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings. Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.




    Matthew 5:37

    Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.




    Job 11:3

    Should your babble silence men, and when you mock, shall no one shame you?




    Ephesians 2:8

    For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,




    John 3:1-36

    Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.




    1 John 4:1

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.




    1 John 3:1

    See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.




    James 1:19

    Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;




    1 Timothy 4:12

    Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.




    Matthew 7:12

    “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
     
    #7 saturneptune, Feb 26, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2014
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    Part 2 Verses

    John 3:1-36

    Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    1 John 4:1

    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

    1 John 3:1

    See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

    James 1:19

    Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;

    1 Timothy 4:12

    Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

    Matthew 7:12

    ever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets. Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. For your hands are defiled with blood and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies; your tongue mutters wickedness. No one enters suit justly; no one goes to law honestly; they rely on empty pleas, they speak lies, they conceive mischief and give birth to iniquity. They hatch adders' eggs; they weave the spider's web; he who eats their eggs dies, and from one that is crushed a viper is hatched.

    Proverbs 18:21

    Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.

    Psalm 37:4

    Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

    2 Samuel 11:1-27

    In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel. And they ravaged the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem. It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking on the roof of the king's house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, “Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” So David sent messengers and took her, and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she had been purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. And the woman conceived, and she sent and told David, “I am pregnant.”

    Deuteronomy 29:9

    Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.

    James 3:1

    Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

    Isaiah 58:8

    Then shall your light break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up speedily; your righteousness shall go before you; the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.

    Isaiah 58:1-14

    “Cry aloud; do not hold back; lift up your voice like a trumpet; declare to my people their transgression, to the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily and delight to know my ways, as if they were a nation that did righteousness and did not forsake the judgment of their God; they ask of me righteous judgments; they delight to draw near to God. ‘Why have we fasted, and you see it not? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you take no knowledge of it?’ Behold, in the day of your fast you seek your own pleasure, and oppress all your workers. Behold, you fast only to quarrel and to fight and to hit with a wicked fist. Fasting like yours this day will not make your voice to be heard on high. Is such the fast that I choose, a day for a person to humble himself? Is it to bow down his head like a reed, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Will you call this a fast, and a day acceptable to the Lord?

    Proverbs 18:8

    The words of a whisperer are like delicious morsels; they go down into the inner parts of the body.

    2 Samuel 7:12

    When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.

    1 Samuel 16:23

    And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.

    1 John 2:1-29

    My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

    Colossians 1:1-29

    Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel,

    Romans 12:3

    For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

    Matthew 28:18-20

    And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    2 Samuel 1:1-27

    After the death of Saul, when David had returned from striking down the Amalekites, David remained two days in Ziklag. And on the third day, behold, a man came from Saul's camp, with his clothes torn and dirt on his head. And when he came to David, he fell to the ground and paid homage. David said to him, “Where do you come from?” And he said to him, “I have escaped from the camp of Israel.” And David said to him, “How did it go? Tell me.” And he answered, “The people fled from the battle, and also many of the people have fallen and are dead, and Saul and his son Jonathan are also dead.” Then David said to the young man who told him, “How do you know that Saul and his son Jonathan are dead?”
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Now I'm curious...how does your church declare one or another? Is it part of a written constitution. I have here two constitutional statements....one clearly States what stance the church takes ....the other avoids the issue at all costs. Since ive examined both Dispy and Covenant Theology and found both wanting, I choose not to hang my hat on eitherbut I would be more inclined toward CT....but its just soooo Presbyterian (in my view anyway)
     
  10. saturneptune

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    No, the issue is not in our church covenant, which this poster said I got the two mixed up, could be noting further from the truth (Imagine that) Our church covenant addresses things like belief in the Divinity of Christ, His Work on the cross, the Trinity, etc. It does address a Second Coming as an event only, not the scenario. No the reasoning for covenant theology being mentioned is how the congregation as a whole believes. Before 1974, we were dispy. We got in a new pastor that challenged us on several questions, like find me in Scripture where this or that is. In particular, he said find e a passage to show that the Rapture happens in clear and no uncertain terms. No one could do it. At that point the issue was rethought. There may be a few in the older generation, but not many that believe in a Rapture, and a scenario similar to the Left Behind series, a division of eras on how God deals with his people, etc.

    The reason I said in my post that Calvin and covenant do not always go together is that in many SBC churches around here, that are covenant, those who believe in DOGs are in a minority. At our local church, it is probably around 35-40%.

    Having said all of that, it is not the purpose of this thread to prove or disprove the covenant Calvin connection. It is to push forward an ecumenical agenda and mock those that believe that the forerunners to the Baptist faith existed along side the RCC before the Reformation.

    What I cannot understand is, why is this person a Baptist? Nothing is stopping him from walking into a Presbyterian church and signing up.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

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    You know fellas, my old man just wants to keep outa this, but since your both professing Christians & adults, I'm just going to put it here bluntly.....there is a psychosis going on here....probably with some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder that compels you both to go after one another's throats. Do you not both recognize this to be one of the most toxic relationships Ive ever seen displayed....anywhere.....ANYWHERE!

    I have privately attempted to referee this with both of you but its like a forest fire.....as soon as I think its tamped down, BAM-- another contentious commentary then back and forth, back and forth. FIRE BLAZING.

    Guys, if you are the people you claim to be then start walking on that beam.......because I seriously do not want to listen to this crap any more. :BangHead:

    I am young in the faith & this causes me to view you all as just a bunch of Scripture babbling hypocrites...... and Ive been wading hip deep in this Christian hypocrisy for some time now. I have some serious decisions to make regarding my own walk --- perhaps this whole thing is just a wake up call for me......as of today, I think so.
     
  12. Rippon

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    Getting back to the OP : I want more contributors to this thread. Does your Baptist church hold to Covenant Theology, dispensationalism, a hybrid --or no stated position?
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    If we ALL stuck to the OP, we'd not be taking shots at each other. We'd be following the church doctrines and acting like mature Christians and not sniping 4th graders.

    The stated theology of both Northern (and all subsets, like Conservative, GARBC, et al) and Southern is very dispensational. I have pastored in IFB (from Northern) all my life, edited the state magazine, spoken in conferences, etc, and NEVER met a pastor/church that held to historic "covenant" theology.

    It was not until running into the Presbyterian-trained Baptists in the Reformed Baptist circles that I found Baptists who bought into that mindset.

    Think "John MacArthur" - avid defender of reformed soteriology BUT 100% dispensational - or think the great men of Dallas Seminary, and you will see where most Baptists align.
     
  14. Jordan Kurecki

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    Dispensational.
     
  15. Deacon

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    My church is dispensational with a strong free grace soteriology.

    Rob
     
  16. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Dispensationalist Southern Baptist church.
     
  17. SynodOfDort

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    My church is Reformed Baptist, Pre-Trib, dispy, no resemblence to baby-waterboarders (Presbyterians).

    Myself on the other hand? Modified dispy with post-mil leanings... you can thank R.C. Sproul for that! :laugh:
     
  18. Yeshua1

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    We are officially Dispy, as we view the second coming and Millinium as happening still, but do allow for pre/mid/post and A Mil/Post mil also, thouhg very few in our church to either of them!

    And have both Dispy holding to calvinistic Sotierology as I do, and others to arminian views regarding that!
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

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    But does not this "Dispyness" LOL, color your prospective on any number of things going on in the world today.....the obvious one being how you see Israel.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    baby-water boarders :laugh: I think thats funny but I can just see how the Elders at this OPC by me......it would resemble this :)mad:)
     
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