Covenant Theology or Dispensationalist?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Rich_UK, Aug 20, 2004.

  1. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
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    What is your stance on the subject. I simply want your views with your main reason for believing what you believe and your view as to why the other viewpoint is incorrect. (The viewpoint, not the person with the viewpoint)
     
  2. dean198

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    Both are of foreign (non Baptist) origin, and I strongly believe that both are wrong. One teaches that there is only one covenant with two administrations - which is used to inconsistently justify infant baptism (whilst denying infant communion usually), and the right of Presbyterians to impose their religion upon everyone else with the power of the sword (as happened during the first English civil war - until Cromwell put an end to it).

    Dispensationalism splits up time into different dispensations, and in classical dispensationalism, each dispensation has a different way of salvation. The Dispensationalist, whilst rightly asserting against the covenant theologian that the believer is not under the law as a rule of life, artificially divides world history into far too many dispensations. It mistakenly divides the second coming into two second comings with an imaginary seven year period in between; postpones the firey judgement of Christ at the second coming (when the angels destroy all those who obey not the gospel) until after a thousand years, teaching that some nations will go on to live in a millennial kingdom; and denies that Jesus is reigning as king now, and will reign UNTIL all his enemies are put under his feet at the last trumpet (which Paul is clear happens when believers are raptured or 'changed' - 1 Cor.15:20-28, 52-57). It teaches that Christ will set up his kingdom AFTER the last trump when we are all changed, contrary to the scriptures just referenced, and, surpassing the covenant theologian, teaches that the temple worship and law of moses will be reinstituted for the Jews and for all nations. And then after all this, the heavens and earth will be destroyed with fire - but Peter said these things happen when the Lord returns 'as a thief in the night.'


    The original Baptists, both General and Particular, rejected Covenant theology. Their beliefs were totally contrary to the later teaching of dispenationalism, created by and large by baby baptising Plymouth Brethren 'pope' John Nelson Darby.

    Dean
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Many problems in your descriptions of dispensationalism but this is a major one. There are some forms of dispensationalism that teach different ways of salvation, but "classical dispensationalism" did not.
     
  4. rufus

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    I'm prepared to "preach it" both ways. lol
     
  5. Major B

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    I am not a full-blown dispensationalist, though I lean a bit that way. What you assert is something I've heard, but never found. I find no place in Chafer, or Scofield, or elsewhere that shows a dispensational doctrine of differing ways of salvation. In fact the only allegedly evangelical group that teaches that is the Campbellite group, which explicitly teaches that the OT way of salvation was different, and they are certainly NOT dispensational.

    Could you give me one or more references where main-line dispensational authors (not Hypers like Stamm, et al) explicitly teach more than one way of salvation?
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

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    Dispensationalism teaches, God have a different plan for Israel and the Church. Dispensationalism teaches, Israel and the Church are distinction.

    Bible does not teaching that. Bible teaches us, both Jews and Gentiles are already reconciled together at once forever and ever by through Calvary 2,000 years ago. - Eph. 2:12-16.

    I am not "Covenant Theologian", neither, I invlove with Covenant Theology movement. I understand the Bible teaching us about the covenant, what it is all about.

    Right now, we are under the new testament(covenant), because of Calvary. The old already fade away - Heb. 8:13. We are no longer under the old covenant, now, we are under the new covenant because of Calvary's result.

    Also, I am NOT a Replacment Theology. Churches does NOT replace Israel. Israel IS Church, Church is Israel.

    In the New Testament, Israel is being describe of spiritual nation- 1 Peter 2:9, that we are the holy nation. Gentiles already grafting into Olive Tree join with believing Jews, and share together on the same tree, so, therefore, we are all Israel - Romans 11:25-26.

    Dispensationalism doctrine makes look so complex, because of John N. Darby.

    I believe the Bible teaching us, God have the only one plan of salvation for the whole world both Jews and Gentiles through Calvary. Not just for the New Testament saints only, also, include Old Testament saints too.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    Eschatology: That branch of systematic theology which deals with the doctrines of the last things (ta eschata)

    The question is, last things of what? The Old Covenant or the church age and planet earth.

    Genesis 49
    1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days .......................10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come ; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

    According to the OT the last days would be in the time of Messiah.

    Hebrews 1:1-2 and Acts 2 confirm that the last days occured at the time of Christ and the writing of the NT.

    Micah 4
    1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

    Again the OT prophet tells us the last days would be when the Lord establishes His house.
    See Eph. 2:19-22

    So are their two sets of "last days"? I do not believe that to be a scriptual position. The end of "something" was coming to an end according to the inspired writers of the NT.

    Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
    20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    I Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


    What "world" was ending? The physical world? Obviously not. It was the "age" that was ending.

    I John 2:18Dear children, this is the last hour ; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

    Last hour of what?

    I Pet 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand : be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

    All things are ending. Does this speak of the physical world? The church age?


    I Cor. 4:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
    30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
    31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away .

    The time is short. The fasion of the 1st century world was passing away.


    The Old Covenant/Jewish Age/ Mosaic economy was coming to an end. It was the "last days" of the Old Covenant world. Eschatology is the study of Old Covenant Israel's last days. Not the Church Age or the physical world.

    Paul taught all of the eschatological events. Yet he ties them to Old Covenant Israel.

    Acts 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
    6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers :
    7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes , instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

    Jesus came to fulfill all those promises:

    Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Heaven and Earth( Old Covenant) would not pass until He had fulfilled all.

    The book of Revelation describes all the eschatological events. The angel tells John when they would happen:

    Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done .7 Behold, I come quickly : blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand .

    If we do not honor the clear time indicators then we can interpret Revelation any way we wish. If we honor the time statements then these events describe the end of the Jewish Age.

    The prophet Daniel also told us when these events would occur:

    Dan 12:7Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

    All things would be fufllied when the power of the Holy people had been shattered. How would the Jews view this? I believe it refers to the destruction of their Temple. Luke describes it as well. Many commentaries acknowledge that Luke 21 is describing the events of AD70:

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    22 For these be the days of vengeance , that all things which are written may be fulfilled .

    "All things written may be fulfilled". What things were written at the time Jesus spoke these words? The OT prophecies. They were all fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem. The eschatology of Old Covenant Israel was over. The New Heaven and New Earth are now here in fullness.

    So are there two sets of "Last Days"? If not then Covenantal Eschatology is the only one that fits and honors the time-statements of the inspired Word of God.

    Ecc. 1:4
    Eph 3:21
     
  8. Craigbythesea

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    I believe that both Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology are man-made theological schemes that distort the true teachings of the Bible through the application of deductive rather than inductive logic. Deductive logic:

    Covenant Theology is the correct theology; therefore this verse must be interpreted thus:

    Or

    Dispensational Theology is the correct theology; therefore this verse must be interpreted thus:
     
  9. dean198

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    Darby wrote:

    "But to take up the point of the dispensation - obedience under the law by which life was to be: this obedience they undertook; and Moses returned to receive the various orderings of divine appointment as under it, and the two tables of testimony."
    'The Apostasy of the Successive Dispensations'


    The note on John 1:17 of the Scofield Reference Bible (1909, 1917) reads:

    "As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ....The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation."

    However, that said, as I have been looking into this, I might have to re-assess if they did believe in different ways of salvation. I am principally more interested in Darby and the Plymouth Brethren than Chafer, Scofield, Ryrie etc (maybe because I'm British). I cannot disagree with Ryrie when he writes:

    "The basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ; the requirement for salvation in every age is faith; the object of faith in every age is God; the content of faith changes in the various dispensations. It is this last point, of course, that distinguishes dispensationalism from covenant theology, but it is not a point
    to which the charge of teaching two ways of salvation can be attached. It simply recognizes the obvious fact of progressive revelation."
    Dispensationalism, p. 115.

    If this understanding is read back into Scofield, than I concede that what Scofield said might not be wrong.

    Dean
     
  10. Major B

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    I think Scofield and Darby were talking about sanctification, and not salvation, though their words could have been more precise.

    Again, I would call myself an exegetical theologian rather than a systematic. I see no grand scheme that men could devise.

    For instance, in opposition to such as Norman Geisler, the human philosophical idea that "the beginning of all truth is the principle of non-contradiction" is just that--human. There are, in the Bible, several things that are paradoxical, and the Bible neither settles the paradoxes, nor does it tell us that we are allowed to do so.

    I see a series of declarations by God--His mentions of the pre-creation plans and Counsel of the Triune God, God's instructions to Adam before and after the Fall, His Covenants with Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Moses and Israel, Israel again in Deuteronomy, Eleazar, David, and the New Covenant. God clearly calls some of these things "covenant," and He just as clearly does not refer to other things as "covenant." He does not refer to any of them as "dispensation." However, underlying all of these things is His RELATIONSHIP to various men and women, and that relationship [after the Fall] is always on the basis of grace and faith.
     
  11. psr.2

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    If a person does not rightly divide the word they have a hairball teaching.

    Here is a verse that clearly staes that the O.T. set-up will be re-instated in the future.
    Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    Shadow of things TO COME. Those things happened a 1000 years before!

    Listen when is the last time you offered a burnt literal sacrifice to the Lord for your sin?

    Read the bible. The sabbath was never for a gentile. The scripture states very clear that it was a covenant between God and Israel.

    You cannot make the church and Israel the same.
    You cannot even make the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven the same.

    Matt. 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Now who in the kingdom of God in eternity will be cast out?
    No one. This is about the Kingdom of heaven.
    Read it. The kingdom of heaven is a kingdom on this earth during the millenium. Christ will be on the throne and there will be a literal lake of fire where the ungodly will be cast.

    It's not hard it just takes believing what you read over tradition.
     
  12. psr.2

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    [off topic slur snipped]

    [ August 23, 2004, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
  13. go2church

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    "It's not hard it just takes believing what you read over tradition."

    That statement coming from a dispensationalist is hilarious!

    That is just about the worst interpretation of that scripture that you could possibly have!

    Vs. 10 - No one who is a Jew has shown the faith this Gentile showed

    Vs. 11 - Many Gentiles will come and be a part of true Israel (recline at the table of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) (context demands that they come by faith in Jesus) also read Romans 9:6-8

    Vs. 12 - Jews (sons of the kingdom) that do not accept Jesus (show faith like this Gentile did) as the the Messiah will be thrown into the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Like everyone else not accepting Jesus
     
  14. dean198

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    You are mistaken.

    Luke 13:28:

    "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."
     
  15. Old Timer

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    Dean why not address the passage posted?

    Matt.8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    Kingdom of heaven

    You cannot (scriptually) make the kingdom of heaven where a saved person wil spend eternity.
    There will not be anyone cast out of that kingdom once they enter.

    Don't mean to steal your fire psr but I could not help but try to show the error of what Dean & go2 church are saying.

    Luke 13 is not the same parable. Read it. The words are different.
    The kingdom of God is not the kingdom of heaven.

    Read Matt. 13:47-50 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
    48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
    49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
    50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    There are no "bad" in God's kingdom in eternity.
    That is a reference to the literal kingdom of heaven here on earth during the millenium.
    psr is right and all you have to do is read.
     
  16. Old Timer

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    Oh by the way hello I'm the new old guy. The trouble with trying to make the whole bible say the same thing is you will end up with contradictions.

    You could not possibly reconcile the book of Lev.
    with 1 John 1:9.

    Someone who denies that God worked differently at different times will have a hard time with many passages.

    I have heard the "same yesterday, today, forever"
    bit but it does not wash with what we are discussing.
     
  17. go2church

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    Who are the sons of the kingdom in verse 12?
    Where do you get a millenium in this passage?

    Obviously, I think the bible teaches that the kingdom of God and the kingdom of heaven are the same, synomous terms referencing the same thing.

    Especially since Matthew is the only writer to use the term kingdom of heaven in the New Testament, while the rest of the bible writers use the phrase the kingdom of God. Most likely a sensitivity respective of his Jewish upbringing and readers.

    Dispensationalism makes a distinction that the bible does not.
     
  18. go2church

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    BTW welcome to the board. It looks funny to see Old Timer listed with junior member listed underneath it.
     
  19. Old Timer

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    quote;
    Where do you get a millenium in this passage?
    Jesus is talking so we know that Abr., Is., Jac. are dead right?

    When this takes place they are alive in the kingdom of heaven.
    Future event.
    We know that no child of God in his kingdom can be cast out.
    This kingdom is the reign of Christ in Jerusalem after Armageddon.
    Those of us that are saved and raptured out to the judgement seat of Christ and marriage supper will come back with Christ and be in a kingdom on this earth with him for 1000 years.
    The O.T. setup will be brought back as it says in;
    Col. 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    That will be the setup for 1000 years just as it says in Ezeliel 40-48.
    I know some of you are mad at psr but what he said is true and scriptual.
    The book of Daniel and Psalm talks much about it as well.
    If you are interested I will pm you some info.
     
  20. Craigbythesea

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    This is nothing but ultra-modernist tripe. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
     

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