Covenant vs. Dispensational vs. New Covenant theology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by dwmoeller1, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Am new to this board. I tried searching for the topic but was unable to find this particular discussion. I apologize beforehand if this is an 'old' topic (although it looks like with as many times Calvinism has been rehashed it shouldn't be a big deal if it is :))

    Let me just introduce the discussion this way...
    I am curious as to the general breakdown of people's view regarding Biblical covenants and God's plan/purpose in history. Who would classify themselvs as dispensationalist? Covenanters? New Covenanters? Other (if so, what)?

    Or is it something you have never really studied and thus aren't sure what you are?

    If you chose one particular category, can you give the reason(s) (ie. Scripture and logic) for taking your particular position and/or rejecting the other positions?


    Also, as a side question (maybe to become a different thread)...If you consider yourself within the Covenant theology camp (enough Cists here that I figure this a likelihood :)) how do you argue for credobaptism within the CT framework?
     
  2. ~JM~

    ~JM~
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    Could we include Modified Covenant Theology/MCT I'm interested in what others think of this modified system.

    Peace,

    j
     
  3. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    It appears that he doesn't really understand CT and/or NCT and consequently doesn't understand their distinctives.

    But it is interesting. However, I would question the need for keeping the concept of the 'covenant of grace' if one is not going to include the Mosaic as part of it.
     
  4. ~JM~

    ~JM~
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    Go on...

    :1_grouphug:
     
  5. dwmoeller1

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    Well a main tenant of CT (if I understand correctly) is that the covenant of grace is how God deals with *all* His people throughout *all* history. The covenant of grace is THE overarching theme and reality of redemptive history. It seems that this writer has to deny this, what seems to me, essential aspect of the covenant of grace thus doing away with the need for the concept.

    In fact, later on he seems to do just that. The new covenant is no longer a different administration of the overarching covenant of grace as it is in CT, but instead he makes the new covenant into the covenant of grace and extends it backwards in time.
     
  6. dwmoeller1

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    Yeah, the more I read the site, the more I think he is simply confused about both positions. He starts with mostly CT presuppositions but sees the difficulties those presuppositions created in some areas. He would do better, I think, to question the presuppositions and then start over.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Here's what I found in a link in a friend's website. I am breaking it down into several posts for easier reading.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    New Covenant Theology

    LINK HERE by Gary D. Long
    Gary D. Long is the Faculty President of Providence Theological Institute located in Belton, Texas. Providence Theological Institute’s website is www.ptitx.org.
     
    #8 pinoybaptist, Feb 12, 2007
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  9. pinoybaptist

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    New Covenant Theology

    by Gary D. Long

    Gary D. Long is the Faculty President of Providence Theological Institute located in Belton, Texas. Providence Theological Institute’s website is www.ptitx.org.
     
    #9 pinoybaptist, Feb 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2007
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    New Covenant Theology

    by Gary D. Long

    Gary D. Long is the Faculty President of Providence Theological Institute located in Belton, Texas. Providence Theological Institute’s website is www.ptitx.org.
     
    #10 pinoybaptist, Feb 12, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 12, 2007
  11. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    New Covenant Theology

    by Gary D. Long

    Gary D. Long is the Faculty President of Providence Theological Institute located in Belton, Texas. Providence Theological Institute’s website is www.ptitx.org.

     
  12. Andy T.

    Andy T.
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    My views are close to what is sometimes called "progressive dispensationalism." I am post-trib on the timing of the rapture.
     
  13. skypair

    skypair
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    pinoy,

    Thanks for those illuminating posts. :D

    I think after reading them, though, that they are rather a "compromise" much as midtrib or prewrath rapture theogies are a compromise of actual biblical resurrections -- one to heaven pretrib for the church and one postrib to earth for the OT saints.

    Also lacking for me is the comment on the imputation of Adam's sin. I may be misuderstanding him but we got the "sin nature" from Adam, not sin guilt.

    Much of the rest sounds like "postdating" one's check. I agree with many of his disputes with CT. There are patently more than one covenant in operation. All who don't come into the new covenant are still under the old, for instance.

    skypair
     
  14. dwmoeller1

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    Read further and you will find NCT is definitely not a compromise. NCTs start out with basic suppositions and a framework which is unique from both the Dispensationalist and Covenant views. If they happen to trod the 'middle road' between the two opposing views, it is not because of their desire to reconcile or compromise between the two opposing views. They would say that the reason NCT treads the middle ground is because the other two opposing views have wrong suppositions and thus fall to the extremes.

    Whether they are accurate in this is a subject for discussion, but lets be clear that they are not a compromise position.

    He would probably hold that we received both imputed sin (ie. sin guilt) and sin nature from Adam, just as we receive imputed righteous and a righteous nature from Christ. The emphasis in point is not a denial of sin nature but an emphasis on imputed guilt.

    So how would you classify yourself and why?
     
  15. dwmoeller1

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    Why progressive dispensationalism?

    I almost included PD in the list but, as far as I can tell, its not really a unique position like the other three. Maybe you can comment on that as well.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair
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    dw...

    ...

    This is the "compromise" I was seeing: "A major objective of NCT is that its hermeneutic will help bring doctrinal unity in this sin-wrecked world by breaking down the middle walls of doctrinal partition that exist within the theological systems of Covenant Theology and Dispensational Theology." I took that to mean that they were trying to reach some middle ground where doctrinal walls now stood.

    I'm a firmly grounded dispie. :D

    skypair
     
  17. dwmoeller1

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    Compromise is finding what is common and working from there to create unity. Instead they see walls which prevent unity and seek to break down those walls. Compromise seeks to find unity within disunity - they seek to create unity by starting from a totally new set of suppositions.

    Why?
     
  18. skypair

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    Well, I've been trying to break down walls and bring unity between free will and Calvinism for some time now over the following misunderstandings:

    Belief vs. faith

    Foreknow vs predestination

    justification vs sanctification

    soul vs spirit

    They really are right about sanctification but wrong about justification and where it belongs in theology.

    There are obviously 2 dispensations at least -- Israel and the church. Two "husbands" -- OT and NT, Rom 7:3-4. To miss that and say one covenant (CT) is another fault I find with Calvinists/Reformers. They, indeed, have to make up a covenant that is NEVER mentioned in scriptures and deny the meaning of or ignore all the ones that ARE mentioned!

    There is only one way -- faith. But that faith was centered in 2 very different things -- God and Christ. Now that is not to say that the OT saints won't have to come by Way of Christ; they will -- but not till the MK.

    skypair
     
  19. Mel Miller

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    Dispensational vs. NCT

    Skypair,

    Statments like the following, without Scriptural support, are so misleading
    that they should be exposed whenever you make them a basis for seeking
    to solve the rift between the NCT and the unfounded doctrine that OT
    Saints "don't take part in God's plans until the Millennial Kingdom":

    "There is only one way -- faith. But that faith was centered in 2 very different things -- God and Christ. Now that is not to say OT saints won't have to come by Way of Christ; they will -- but not till the MK".

    Mel Miller
     

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