cover ups

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by bapmom, Jun 6, 2006.

  1. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok, in another thread we were talking about a specific case in which many thought there was a cover-up. But I want this to be about the idea of covering up in general.

    I should think that as Christians we would try to cover up a thing as much as possible. I mean we do not need to drag all this stuff out into the open and tell everyone forever what happened. For example, is it a "cover up" if I am not told exactly why the former president of my college resigned recently? And actually why the man before him left as well? What about this stuff going on in Bob Gray's church right now? People are crying "cover up" about that, too.

    What if a church leadership deals with a problem Biblically, the sin is confessed and dealt with. Is the leadership required to tell everyone everything from that moment on?

    We have a man in our church who was caught in sin years and years ago. It was handled Biblically, he is no longer in the same position he had had before, but he does now have a ministry in our church. Not everyone knows about this. Are we doing a cover up here? I don't think so. I think there is a point where these verses kick in.

    Pr 10:12
    Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
    Pr 17:9
    He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.
     
  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2000
    Messages:
    9,644
    Likes Received:
    311
    Much of the problem stems from current (for the last twenty five years or so) legal reporting requirements. Churches seem to be out of step with them. I think this is an out growth of a well founded distrust of the State and a sense coming from Corinthians of not wanting "to go to court" over a brother. I'll state for the record the last is a misinterpertation and misapplication of that passage.
     
  3. Milady

    Milady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    That particular one is a bit out of context for this, I agree with Squire.
    (sounds like it is talking abut a gossip/busibody not a concerned friend)
    You also have to remember 1John 1:9
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    Then there is Matthew 18. That is a whole other ballgame.
    If you go to him alone, first, then there is no need for others to know. After that it is really upon his own head.If he refuses to listen to the wittnesses, then you go before the church.etc......
    A coverup is ok for a sin that was forgiven and forsaken. But not when the sin is ignored.
     
  4. Milady

    Milady
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    BTW when people are told about a particular sin, No Details should be discussed. Just the sin. .......Yes Pastor-------------Had an affair with his secretary, not I heard they were found doing.............. and .............
     
  5. bapmom

    bapmom
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2005
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    0
    edit: doesn't really matter :)
     
  6. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2005
    Messages:
    7,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    It has been my privilege to sit under some great men as my pastor. One of them was Dr. Bob Gray. Yes, the accused one.

    Right now there are a lot of people struggling to reconcile the Pastor Bob Gray they appreciate and love so much with the child molesting pervert Bob Gray.

    It would have been better had the accusations been dealt with openly back in 19-whatever. Had Dr. Gray come forward and openly confessed his indiscretions, openly resigned the pulpit of Trinity and sought counseling, a lot of heartache and grief would have been avoided. And our respect for him would probably still be intact.

    Now I fear that many more will suffer just because 'the ministry' or some man was more important than doing what is right.

    Another famous 'Dr. Bob'- Dr. Bob Jones- once said, "Do right though the stars may fall."

    :tear::praying:
     
  7. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    23
    Cover up

    First a ‘cover up’ I believe has its basis in that which is clearly defined as a legal aspect of society and biblical aspect of church polity. If in the committing of an act it would bring one into a position of public judgment within both the church and civil government and it is not dealt with that would constitute a cover up.

    Secondly is the aspect of public testimony and church polity, like the pastor, the church name should be above reproach in the community. Sexual scandals, money scandals, abuse scandals etc need to be dealt with openly and above board for the sake of the community’s view of the church and the church’s reputation in the eyes of others including her members. Being labeled in ones community is not always bad but being labeled as ungodly is unacceptable.

    Other things within the local body fall under Matthew 18 keeping in mind the process of church discipline is to effect restoration and not ridicule and judgment by the membership. Within the process of church discipline the time frame belongs to the church leadership. From 1 Corinthians 52 Corinthians 2 was between 2 – 3 years and the result was restoration.
     
  8. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    cover ups feel like a lie to me. not everything needs to be publically known but when stuff starts coming out and people know bits and pieces, then hiding it might be much worse, or if it was something publically done, when things are purposely hidden it doesn't look good.
    just my thoughts.
     
  9. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    They are a lie. Why in the world would you want to cover this up? Sin hurts people. In the case of Gary, the coverup lead to many, many more kids being hurt.

    This does not only hurt the ones close to the sin, it hurts the church. In a cover up, people still talk. They talk behind closed doors. They leave the church and talk. One needs to deal with sin. If the leaders had stopped this years ago, and come forward and made a public statement like...

    "Bob is no longer pastor at this church. Church leaders felt that events that have taken place in the past, in Bobs life, has caused leaders to remove him from his duties"

    At this point it would be up to Bob if you wants to tell the story or not. But from the church stand point, it should be clear that it was something that could no longer go on.

    The details do not have to be told by the church, but the church leaders should step in and let if be knewn there was something WRONG and they did something about it. This would restore trust in the church to the familys hurt. This would also bring glory to God by dealing with sin.

    This also shows the world that ALL can sin even a pastor. Putting things like this out on the table helps everyone get past the sins. This tells others in the church that, if a "great man" can fall, you can as well so you should always fear sin. Another thing this will do, is it shows there are not two standards. One for pastors and one for the lay-person. Sin in the eyes of God is sin no matter who sins.

    Coverup is only a lie and lies hurt in the end. This is what we see in Bobs life and Jacks life. I will give this to Bob, at least he is "starting" to recall somethings he did. Maybe in the end he will come right out and say he was wrong. If he does..this would help the hurt in someways. People do forgive, even the ones hurt the most. But you must tell the truth. Jack kept lieing tell the day he died.
     
  10. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    5,701
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said..and I agree.
     
  11. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess my view on this is that to the extent of the effect of the sin, so to the extent of the confession. What impact does my sin have? To that extent then my sin needs to be dealt with. If it is a crime against society--then society needs to know. If it is a sin against the church as a whole--then the church needs to know. If it is a sin against a local fellowship---then...

    Bro Tony
     
  12. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    When the sin is against someone, especially children, by an adult authority figure, it should be reported to the authorities, not just "handled by the church". I've seen far too many of the latter that weren't really "church discipline", and were only handled by one or two members of the staff. When it does finally come to light into the public's view, it is far more catastrophic when it has been hushed up by the church and not been reported immediately to the legal authorities.

    Even in the case of an adult, if it is something that is illegal, it should be reported to the proper legal authorities for investigation, as well as the church investigating. In one of the churches my wife and I formerly attended, there were allegations of rape against the pastor by several women who were counselled by him. The church was silent about it except for the assistant pastor taking over, allegedly performing church discipline (it WAS NOT BROUGHT BEFORE THE CHURCH) and then sending the pastor along his way to another, unsuspecting church. In the next church the same situation arose, and this pastor was sentenced to several years in jail and then the situation was made public in the previous church. It was devastating.

    Just because a church CAN handle certain things by Scripture, doesn't nullify the legal authorities options and the church's responsibility to bring it to the light of the authorities.
     
  13. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    BINGO!! opps---did I a SBC pastor say that?---I guess I better go say my "hail mary's" :smilewinkgrin: :laugh: I agree completely with the other Brother Tony.

    Bro Tony
     
  14. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bro Tony, YES, you did! :thumbs: But, then, you're a dying breed in the SBC. Oh, please, don't make reference to the "hail mary's"...the SBC churches have enough problems without making them closer to the Catholics. :tongue3:
     
  15. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    If something done is illegal, then it should come out, and it should come out to the authorities. We should never ever cover up illegal activities, even in the church.,
     
  16. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    I would have to say ESPECIALLY in the church....If we wait or try to cover things up it gives the church a look of impropriety that may never go away.
     
  17. Jana Scott

    Jana Scott
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think our churches are staying farher and farther away from God. Only 1 sin can be responsible for that: the greatest sin--the sin of PRIDE.

    Cover-up is basically done only due to pride. Again, it makes us no better than the unbeliever because it shows others that we're too proud to confess our sins. We can blame it on Satan...but when it comes down to it...it's our decision to act/react in a certain way. Satan only gives us the thought. He didn't even give us the fruit. We're the ones who took it.

    However, not all leadership is like that. I think usually the preachers who have large churches and lots of members tend to have cover ups. I have heard of a small Baptist church who's preacher's son fell into immorality. Not too long later, the preacher stepped down from his position because he didn't meet all the qualifications of a preacher anymore. He made this acknowledgement in front of his congregation.
     
  18. shannonL

    shannonL
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Bob Gray of Jacksonville Fl. is the latest in IFB cover ups.
    He is has been accused of molesting 17 different girls over the span of his 40+ yrs of ministry. Upon arrest he confessed freely that he had had a practice of french kissing 6-8yr. old girls in his church not to mention the other stuff the women have come forward to reveal.
    Trinity Bapt. claims to have "disciplined" Gray in 92. Oddly enough during that year and the next he becomes a IFB missionary to Germany. He quietly left the country.
    That church once it supposedly disciplined Gray should have turned him over to the police. Instead gullible, starry eyed pastors sent him to Germany without him hardly having to raise support. Taking him on as a missionary in their respected churches almost immediatly upon his announcement of going on deputation. SICK. His ministry was nationwide. THe disclosure of his sin should have been announced to all it affected. Which was to IFB across the nation.
    Trinity handled this with secrecy as to not upset the college and church ministry . That is how I see it. Be sure your sins will find you out no matter how good the cover up.
     
  19. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    EXACTLY! we have to think of how it looks on the body of Christ, what kind of witness is it to let it go when a crime has been committed.
     
  20. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    donnA, I can tell you that my sister, who has five daughters, and has an ex-hyper-fundy IFBx preacher husband, had Gray in their homes several times when they lived in Texas and were in the ministry there. Now she's totally broken down over this for two reasons....Dr. Gray was their friend and they had put a lot of faith in the man....and secondly, I believe, because she wonders if he ever did anything to violate their daughters. Of course, they were there in the house and he was always in sight, so I doubt it, but, still..it does play on the mind. Her ex-much like Gray, was very hard lined towards her and their daughters, playing mind games and trying to keep them in line that way. I've talked to others, and they state that this is the way Dr. Gray was in the early years of the college. I never saw that side of him, though.

    Dr. Messer should have brought this PUBLICALLY before the church instead of saying "church discipline" was performed. It wasn't if it was something that was done in secret. That's NOT church discipline. It was improper, and he, knowing the legalities involved, I believe, should step down from the pastorate. It's tainted his ministry in my eyes, and in the eyes of many others around the country. The church and college can recover, but, I don't believe it will be possible under his tenure. That's just my own opinion, though. I know I could never refer anyone there again as long as he is pastor or involved in the college.
     

Share This Page

Loading...