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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Feb 22, 2015.
And I agree, just being a wee bit facetious....
We work, not to be saved or to keep ourselves saved, but to show others, and especially the lost, we are saved. Our works show others who we are working for...
You know we can shine our lights sitting in the house playing our Atari....
I'm hearing the crunching of some toes....
Ouch!!! That was a good one!!!
I agree with everything you've posted. But these guys won't listen to us, because we being Calvinists, they won't pay attention to it.
Works are something everybody does, saint or sinner. They show who we are working for. We don't work to inherit eternal death or life. Our works puts our master, or Master for the saved, on a billboard for all to see. That's why I state our fruits are our works...
You're 100% correct in your approach. Anything I have said that has detracted from your OP, please accept my deepest apology.
Works are our fruit. People are known by their fruit, both saint and sinner. When we were sinners(we're all sinners saved by God's grace), when we were unregenerate, everything we did showed that we were workers of Satan. That stings, but it's the truth. Running the bars, chasing the women, abusing drugs, lying, cheating, stealing, murdering, raping, molesting, &c are all fruits of the unregenerate, are the works of the unregenerate.
As christians, we now produce different fruit. Here's an example, and I hope no one thinks I am patting myself on the back for typing this. My father-in-law pastors a little UB church. He had one of the sweetest old ladies for a member. I truly believe she is at rest with God now. When she was near death, they had her at the hospital I work at. I went up one night and talked with her and her family. Two of her sons are preachers. I held prayer with her and the family and went back to work. A night or two later she passed away.
The first night of her visitation, my in-laws and I went over to visit that family. One of the Brothers that was there the night I held prayer was there(he wasn't in that family, but a very close friend) told me that after I left, one of her son's(one of the preachers) boys said you didn't have to be around me long to tell I was a christian. Well, I just about lost all my emotions right there. Trust me, it wasn't the fact he thought that highly of my christianity as it was that he could see Christ in, and through, me. He truly didn't see me, because in my flesh, I am pretty corrupt. But, oh bless the Lord, there's a greater in me than he that's in the world. I want people to not see 'me' in me, but Christ.
Isn't it the Cal position that these works spoken of are done by God through us? We do not have any choice in the matter, we cannot fail to do these works which have been prepared for us before God saved us, Correct?
I try to live by these verses...
--with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;(Gal. 2:20)
--for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God;(Col. 3:3)
--Ye -- of God ye are, little children, and ye have overcome them; because greater is He who [is] in you, than he who is in the world.(1 John 4:4)
Brother, most of what I know about Calvinism comes directly from Calvinist here on the BB. I would think that Calvinist should understand Calvinism the best, don't you?
Now if the scripture declares these works were foreordained, then wouldn't that mean these works WILL be done?? Wouldn't that mean there is no freewill choice to be made whether or not to do them??
Steaver, when God does a work in us, it works effectually. When He calls, we come. He spoke, and there was light. His words formed all we see, and even that which we don't see. He attempts nothing but does everything He purposes in doing. The works we do we do because our will has been changed. He puts a new desire within us. It's like when you put your foot to the pedal, the car moves. When God moves, things happen.
Not to hijack and/or derail this thread, but let's see how God works in salvation. Does He try to save or does He save? God has never tried to do anything, He just does it. If God truly desired all to be saved, all would be saved. He spoke, there was light. He called, we responded. When He calls on the last day, all will come and stand before Him(Matt. 26, John 5:28,29, 1 Cor. 15, 1 Thess. 4, Rev. 20). He works so effectually that even the dead in the grave will answer His voice.
Now getting back to the OP. Good works are the fruit of the effectual work He did within us. Good works are the evidence of our salvation.
We will get to the point where we utter, 'not my will Father, but thine will be done'...
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: 27 the blessing, if you listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I am commanding you today; 28 and the curse, if you do not listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I am commanding you today, by following other gods which you have not known.
Deuteronomy 28:15 15 “But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
Failing to see that where Israel failed to accomplish in the first Exodus...
The Church will not fail as the Christian Israel of God....in the New Exodus
OT Israel of God-
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
The Nt Israel of God...The Church-
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Dispensational error is a hindrance to viewing the 66 books as one whole unit.
This should be salvation 101 for all Christians. Shallow man centered evangelism has filled churches with carnal professors who reject Jesus as Lord, and His Kingdom claims upon every area of life....
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate....
Titus continues in Chap2 on this topic;
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 [B]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.[/B]
Jesus is Lord over our thoughts, words , and deeds. Good works are part of our reasonable service of worship. Titus declares this is part and parcel of What Jesus was doing in going to the cross.
:thumbs: If Israel was rejected for not producing such fruit Mt 21:34-43....how can a carnal professor dream that God will over look his sinful neglect of an obedience.
Reformed...my wording was awkward....I did not mean...I fail to see where this happened...I was speaking of those perhaps who miss the parallel, of Ot Israel and the church....
the failing of OT Israel was explicitly recorded in psalm 78 as I am sure you know, but I find it instructive to read to see how their failure was catalogued for us to learn from;
7 That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:
8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation that set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
9 The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.
10 They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;
11 And forgat his works, and his wonders that he had shewed them.
13 He divided the sea, and caused them to pass through; and he made the waters to stand as an heap.
14 In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.
15 He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.
16 He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.
17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
33 Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.
34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
42 They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy.
49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
50 He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
51 And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:
52 But made his own people to go forth like sheep, and guided them in the wilderness like a flock.
53 And he led them on safely, so that they feared not: but the sea overwhelmed their enemies.
56 Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies:
57 But turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.
58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.
59 When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel:
A while back I started a thread on this book....it dealt with this idea that we do not preach and teach as the Apostles did in that the Church is to do what Israel failed to do. The good works and fruit are part of what we are called to when we are called to be saints.
We are not only called to salvation[ that is quite wonderful...} but we are called to salvation as part of the kingdom of God with real responsibilities here and now.
This was written 30-40 years ago...but it seems as if this Author was onto something.
The Greening of the Church Hardcover – 1973
by Findley B. Edge (Author)
What if their deeds did not match up to their profession at that particular time that you were observing them?
1. Were they a "Carnal Christian"?
2. Were they a "Backslidden Christian"?
3. Did they lose their salvation?
4. Or do you jump to the conclusion immediately that they were never saved in the first place?
You may not fall into this category, but I believe there are many Calvinists that do take "snapshot pictures" of others and make immediate judgments concerning one's salvation with that limited exposure. With that limited exposure salvation becomes "salvation based on works not by grace."
The Biblical example of the man who committed incest in 1Cor.5:1,2 is a good example. Because it was such a heinous sin, the opinion of many is that no Christian would ever commit it. Or because "he was delivered to Satan," he couldn't have been a Christian. Both are wrong. Paul addressed him as a "brother." He was a member of the church that had fallen into carnality as many of the Corinthians had. Sin had to be dealt was, and with Paul's assistance here it was. Later on we learn that this believer did repent, and was admitted back into the church.
If the same thing happened today in our churches, would the church be so forgiving? Or in some other cases would a church even practice discipline? We have both types.