Created unto Good Works and not because of !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    Eph 2:10

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Eph 4:24

    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    The false religionists have it backwards, they teach that man is created anew because of his good works, let me explain .

    The good works that one does either in mind or heart must come from the principle of a new life or a new creation Ezk 36:26-27

    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    This describes New Life from Christ or the Spirit in the New Creation. The first works of the New Life are evangelical as Faith or believing and Repentance Jn 6:28-29

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Yes, believing is a Work of God in us, but it is also God causing us to do our work of believing, Phil 2:13

    13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    Believing on Christ is us doing God's Good Pleasure, which is our Work, the Work of the New Creation or New Man Eph 4:24.

    And following the Good Works of Evangelical doing are other good works Titus 3:8

    8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    These are the good works which God created them unto Eph 2:10

    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Now those who claim they are saved because they believed, they are claiming Salvation, being a New Man by their Works, which contradicts Eph 2:8-9

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Such men who claim that are nothing but boasters

    Jesus calls Faith or Believing works here when speaking to the hypocritical jews Jn 8:39

    39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

    Jesus means by the works of Abraham, Abraham's Believing Gen 15:6

    6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Also Gal 3:7

    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    So the conclusion is this, If we claim to be saved because of our Faith or our act of Believing, them we claim salvation by our good works instead of the biblical Truth of Salvation unto Good Works. We are claiming to that our act is what at least assisted God in Creating us a New Man Eph 4:24 which is utter Blasphemy !
     
  2. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    The True nature of Saving Faith in Christ !



    Faith is not what the false religionists thrust it to be, that is a condition that any man must meet or perform in order for God to save them, however faith is the fruit of the Spirit of New Birth, where in the New Born Soul is persuaded of the forgiveness of sins it has through the Redemption that is in the Blood of Christ according to the Riches of Grace Eph 1:7

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; This is known by Faith ! Not accomplished by Faith or because of our Faith !

    So Faith causes one to Trust in what Christ has already done for its Soul, for a pardon already accomplished to the tune of Isa 40:1-2

    Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

    2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. Speaking of the Death of Christ and its accomplishment for their sin !

    So Faith is the result of the revelation of Christ by the Spirit into the Redeemed Soul, which effects within that soul a spiritual persuasion of being already Justified and pardoned by the Blood of Christ ! So again it is not as the false religious world would have us to believe, a act of man, or a pleasing performance of man that God responds to by giving us Eternal Life, for that is nothing but Salvation by Works !
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    Simple ignorance! Ignorance of the context, ignorance of the grammar, ignorance of Pauline doctrine.

    1. The phrase "saved by grace through faith" is defined AS A PHRASE to be "not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God, not of works" and thus this whole phrase is placed within the act of God "created in Christ Jesus" in verse 10 and in direct contrast to "good works" in.

    2. The perfect tense "saved" demands a completed action at a specific point in time - the time of quickening (vv. 1, 5, 10) and it is AT that point in time this action occurred "THROUGH FAITH" not without faith. Think! He says "saved THROUGH faith" NOT "saved WITHOUT faith." "through faith" is an INSEPARABLE part of that completed action that stands completed right up to the point of speaking.

    3. Quickening has direct and immediate consequence upon the person being quickened. There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer any more than there is such a thing as a regenerated unbeliever. The same can be said of repentance and faith. There is no such thing as an unrepentant believer in Christ any more than there is such a thing as a repentant unbeliever in Christ. You cannot turn from something without turning the opposite direction from that something. Neither does God give "new" unbelieving hearts.
     
  4. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    Yes you are !

    Of Course the New Man was Created in Time Eph 4:24 That has not been denied. I do not think you understand my point here.

    Go over the post, and rehearse with me each point i made and tell why I made the point. Thus far you are off on a wild goose chase. For I have made no point against the fact that the New Creature or Man as in Eph 4:24 is Created in Time. You are evading or do not understand the point !

    I do know you like to show off about the greek, but at least do it when it is called for. lol !
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    you can't even understand what I said! I NEVER condenmned you for denying the new creature is a time issue!

    I simply pointed out three undenial facts that you cannot provide any substantive response for.

    1. "SAVED THROUGH FAITH" is a phrase that Paul says that it is "NOT OF YOURSELVES" but rather "IT IS A GIFT OF GOD."

    2. "SAVED THROUGH FAITH" as a whole phrase occurs at one point in time as a completed action - perfect tense. They were not saved at that point in time APART FROM faith but they were saved IN THAT POINT OF TIME "through faith." Simple Greek and simple English.

    Go back and read what I said until you undertand it correctly
     
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    I understand you are evading my point !
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    You are such a dishonest human being it is hard to even imagine that you can possibly be God's elect.

    It is I that made the point that the perfect tense in Ephesians 2:8 (which you quoted to support your position) repudiates what you interpreted Epesians 2:10 to mean! You are the one evading the point and in addition you lied straight faced in your response. May I remind you that Satan is the liar and you are following his lead!

    If you are a child of God, then deal with other's honestly and deal with their objections honestly! You are not a honest man as you are very dishonest in your responses.
     
  8. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thread is a two edged sword because one's "Christianity" can be judged by lack of good works?
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    The thread deals with Ephesians 2:10 does it not? He is talking only about those truly "created in Christ Jesus" is he not? The good works in this text are "before ordained by God" are they not? If good works are manifested it is because it is God that worketh in the child of God both "to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philip. 2:13) is it not? Isn't that the message of Romans 7:18 in a nutshell? The human will of the regenerated man is powerless to produce good works but it is the product of submission to the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11-13)?

    So are you talking from an external outward perspective of fellow men or are you speaking from God's perspective? Ephesians 2:8-10 is speaking from God's perspective as he clearly and immediately states such "good works" are before ordained by God does he not?
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    The True nature of Saving Faith in Christ ! cont



    When it comes to Saving Faith or Faith in Christ, what is meant is that of a Revealing of Christ in the soul of a person when its their time to believe as it was for Paul Gal 1:15-16

    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    It is through this revealing of Christ that comes an inward seeing of Him to Believe Jn 6:40

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Paul also calls it the shining in our hearts [The New Heart Ezk 36:26] to give the light of the knowledge of the Glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ 2 Cor 4:6

    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    This Light was spoken of here Lk 2:32

    A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

    This is also when the Spirit becomes a Spirit of wisdom and Revelation Eph 1:17

    17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    All this is speaking of Giving Saving Faith in Christ, the Light of the World !
     
  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    Yeah Yeah, however you have evaded the point of the OP, Nowhere close !
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    No, it is you that has evaded, lied, perverted and refuses to honestly address the points placed right in your face. Now you are simply lying again!
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    No its you. If you suppose to debate what I stated in the OP then follow my argument to the detail of it and make your rebuttal accordingly !
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    So it is a one way street? I am supposed to make a rebuttal of your argument (which I did) but you don't have to respond to any rebuttal I make (which you did not)? Here again is my rebuttal:


    1. The phrase "saved by grace through faith" is defined AS A PHRASE to be "not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God, not of works" and thus this whole phrase is placed within the act of God "created in Christ Jesus" in verse 10 and in direct contrast to "good works" in.

    2. The perfect tense "saved" demands a completed action at a specific point in time - the time of quickening (vv. 1, 5, 10) and it is AT that point in time this action occurred "THROUGH FAITH" not without faith. Think! He says "saved THROUGH faith" NOT "saved WITHOUT faith." "through faith" is an INSEPARABLE part of that completed action that stands completed right up to the point of speaking.

    3. Quickening has direct and immediate consequence upon the person being quickened. There is no such thing as an unregenerated believer any more than there is such a thing as a regenerated unbeliever. The same can be said of repentance and faith. There is no such thing as an unrepentant believer in Christ any more than there is such a thing as a repentant unbeliever in Christ. You cannot turn from something without turning the opposite direction from that something. Neither does God give "new" unbelieving hearts.

    YOU MADE AN IRRATIONAL AND UNREASONABLE RESPONSE AND I AGAIN REPLIED AS FOLLOWS:


    I NEVER condenmned you for denying the new creature is a time issue!

    I simply pointed out three undenial facts that you cannot provide any substantive response for.

    1. "SAVED THROUGH FAITH" is a phrase that Paul says that it is "NOT OF YOURSELVES" but rather "IT IS A GIFT OF GOD."

    2. "SAVED THROUGH FAITH" as a whole phrase occurs at one point in time as a completed action - perfect tense. They were not saved at that point in time APART FROM faith but they were saved IN THAT POINT OF TIME "through faith." Simple Greek and simple English.

    Go back and read what I said until you undertand it correctly
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    No. I showed my point in the OP from scripture, so if you are responding to the OP, show me forst that you understand my point, for as of now, you have done that, then make your rebuttel accordingly, then its my move again.

    Now do you understand my point in the OP ?
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    Of course I understand your point! Look at my response! I just printed my reponse a THIRD time and you ignore it a THIRD time.

    You think just because you assert something that makes it true. Your assertion about Ephesians 2:10 is simply wrong and my response demonstrates it is wrong. Answer my post if you can.
     
  17. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    .

    Both the hardshell (you) and the Arminian do not understand divine quickening in regard to its essential characteristics.

    Being quickened is the reversal of the condition described in Ephesians 4:18:

    Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    The spiritual dead state is "being alienated from the life of God"! If there is no life of God they are spiritually dead. However, note that this alienation is inseparably described as "the ignorance that is in them" and inseparable from "the blindness of their heart" and inseparable from "having their understanding darkened." It is that SPIRITUAL STATE which is being spiritual dead and it is the REVERSAL of that SPIRITUAL STATE which is being quickened or "created in Christ Jesus."

    Divine quickening is the REVERSAL of these decribed charateristics - all of them. Hence, divine quickening is divine REVELATION:

    "flesh and blood hath not REVEALED this unto thee but my Father in heaven" - Mt. 16:17

    "When it pleased God who separated me from my mothers womb...to REVEAL His son in me" - Gal. 1:16

    This divine REVELATION reverses the "darkened understanding....ignorance in them.......blindness of heart" and thus reverses "alienation of the life of God" to UNION with the life of God which is divine quickening.

    You simply misunderstand the nature of saving faith. Saving faith is "the work of God" - Jn. 6:29 - as it is effected by the drawing of the Father - Jn. 6:44-45;64-65 and thus is something not merely "given" by the Father but is inseparable from being "created in Christ Jesus" as it is impossible for an UNBELIEVER to be "in Christ" in regard to divine quickening - Eph. 2:1,8,10. It is impossible to be "created in Christ Jesus" thus enter that STATE as an unbeliever - impossible!

    The phrase "created in Christ Jesus" in Ephesians 2:10 is a further description of "by grace are ye saved through faith" in verse 8 which is a further description of "quickened...by grace are ye saved" in verse 5 which is a further description of "quickened" in verse 1.

    As I have repeatedly pointed out by the grammar and logic of Ephesians 2:8 the phrase "by grace are ye saved through faith" occurred at the completed perfect tense action of divine quickening or "saved" and must as the text demands one is "saved THROUGH faith" and thus not saved APART from faith and the action of "saved" is the perfected tense completed action that continues to stand completed.

    Hence, there can be no such thing as an spiritually dead believer any more than there can be such a thing as a spiritually alive unbeliever. Both are wrong! Both hardshellism and Arminianism are wrong and you hold to the latter.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012
  18. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    0
    the bib

    What is it in brief as possible ?
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,134
    Likes Received:
    207
    You are a very very dishonest individual. We all know your game plan. You can't HONESTLY respond to my posts and so you deflect and redirect toward your own OP again and again and again simply repeating yourself like a parrot!

    Try some honesty for a change!!!!! You refuse to give any salvation testimony and accordingly you lack the fruits of the Spirit. You are simply a very very dishonest person.


    Anyone reading my responses that has two grains of common sense can clearly see my responses are repudiating your OP beginning with the very first text you use. The crux of you OP is that if anyone beleives a person is saved "through faith" they are teaching works! Read my last post and it is a direct response to the very crux of that argument.

    Pure dishonesty! The moderators should have removed you from this forum a long time ago as you are simply a dishonest person.
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    Maybe we could have him put in to a Non christian/other religions part!

    As he is NOT giving a true Gospel!
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Oct 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2012

Share This Page

Loading...