Damnation and Baptism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by combo_limit, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. combo_limit

    combo_limit
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    During Bible class today, the teacher said that any denomination that teaches something in addition to believing on Jesus Christ will cause you to go to hell.

    I then asked if believing you had to be baptised for salvation meant that you were going to hell. The teacher said yes.

    It seemed odd to me that people that believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for the remission of their sins, and believe that he was both God and Man, and believe that he rose from the dead, and believe that salvation can be found in Him alone, and so forth and so on are going to go to hell, because they think you need to be baptised.
    I also argued with the teacher that there are no verses in the Bible damning such a belief. I agree salvation does not come from being immersed in water, but it would seem to be a bold and un-biblical statement to claim that all those that believe such a thing have not really found Christ.

    I also asked if someone said the sinners prayer (meant it), was baptised the next day, under the impression that baptism saves, (because thats all he knew), if HE would go to hell, and the teacher said yes, because this person was trusting in works for his salvation.

    I tried to point out that this wasn't works, as in, following the law or a law. It was more like a showing of your decision to commit to Christ. So... yeah.

    If you believe baptism saves, does that mean you're going to hell and were never saved?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    Well, I would say that based on this logic we're all headed for hell. None of us, not one single person has everything all figured out. Look at all the things we discuss and argue about on this board. We all differ somewhat in our theology. Almost like finger prints.:)
    The Bible makes it clear. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
    Someday we're all going to find out from the Lord Himself where we were wrong and where we were right.
    I think all those people do who believe things like baptism saves is make life harder on themselves than God intended it to be.
    IMHO. :)
     
  3. Allan

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    I will say this:
    You make your first mistake here:
    You left out the most important contention. They believe Baptism saves them and NOT Christ Alone. You are adding your understanding of scripture WITH theirs. They DO NOT believe that Christ ALONE saves, and we KNOW this because they declare that salvation to them is through Christ and Baptism.

    Baptism doesn't save anyone, period. Not even mingled with beleif or with a great measure of faith and a small inkling of possiblity by baptism.

    I know of groups like this who teach and preach that garbage (Oneness Holiness, Holiness, and others) and a person under that kind of teaching or witnessing places all their trust NOT in Christ alone but in the baptism that makes them partake in work of Christ. Baptism to them is not a secondary issue but the PRIMARY ONE. It does not matter if you submit yourself to the will of God, repent, and believe the even the whole counsil of God concerning the truth of Christ and His atoning work and resurrection. If you are not baptized you ARE NOT saved. You need to FIRST understand their theology.

    That person does not understand TRUE salvation because IT IS mixed with works to the point that Baptism is THAT WHICH SAVES and NOT faith in Christ alone.

    Have you ever talked with someone who believes in baptismal regeneration?
    Ever contended in debate or discussion with one (even a new convert)?
    I have, on multiple occasions (and was blessed to be there when they realized the truth and the TRUE life changing power God saved them radically).
    Also, I have never personally met yet (in 5 states) one who didn't believe you can loose your salvation along side the teaching of Baptismal regeneration. Their might be one or two out there but I have met nor can I find any with a doctrinal statement that DOESN"T state this.

    Baptism is the crux of salvation with them. Scripture denies this absolutely. Salvation is by Grace THROUGH Faith. Read John 3 for starters. Salvation is ONLY to those who believe, NOT believe and are baptized. When you see belief or faith and baptism in the same sentence refering to salvation, it is refering to (ALWAYS) the baptism of the Holy Spirit which places us into the body of Christ and fills and seals us until the day of redemption.

    Remember this though please. IF a person is 'saved' under the teaching of baptismal regeneration they do not get baptised as we understand it, but as they are told what it means and they place their FAITH in baptism as well as Christ. IF they have hearts of truly seeking after God, God will send the truth to them that they might be saved because of the TRUTH and not HALF TRUTH which is still a LIE!


    NOW - with all of that said... I do not state any man is specifically is unsaved but when I know what they believe and then I show scripture that refutes their initial belief and they ignore it or argue against it. I know they did not just get a quick 3 minute witnessing to and then dunking, with a now your saved t-shirt.

    FTR - Those who believe baptismal regeneration are not baptized without a full once over with that person about Baptism and salvation. They do like many "Baptist" Churches DON"T do and that is make sure of their understanding of what has, is, and is to transpire in their lives as believers and what MAKES them Children of God.
     
    #3 Allan, Mar 27, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2007
  4. mes228

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    Baptism

    I believe the Catholics have this right in some respects. They respect "baptism by desire" ie the thief on the cross believed and had a "desire" to full fill the right things. But couldn't as he was on the cross. Many have turned to God in dire circumstances ie "fox hole" conversions and cried out but could not be baptized. Salvation is in Jesus but it does behoove us to fulfill baptism as Jesus did. Even an incorrect understanding on baptism may be hidden in Christ if the "desire" to be correct with God is there but the ability/understanding/ is not. God calls thing that are "not as though they are". Perhaps this is one of them. God does not reject those with a broken and contrite heart.
     
  5. mes228

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    Baptism

    One other thing. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Preacher/Professor that is teaching this stuff to you. He is not "God" and ought to be more careful in speaking for Him, in my opinion. God may someday ask him "who authorized you to teach this in my name". Unfortunately sounds like me and some of the drivel I have taught and opinionated. Fortunately, I repented eventually of teaching what I was taught. Take care, check many sources, avoid college/seminary/ "lock step" belief systems. After all every denomination, religion, belief system has colleges and seminaries that teach teach their beliefs as "truth". Even Moslems, Budhist, etc.etc. have them. God is outside the box.
     
  6. Bluefalcon

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    Why would anyone choose to obey Christ and then disobey him by refusing to be baptized?
     
  7. MNJacob

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    I believe that this is a perversion of some of Wesley's preaching. Mark Rutland on "Herald of Joy" preached this same thing last week.

    Personally, Grace plus works does not invalidate Grace.

    Works are wasted in attempting to achieve salvation, but Grace never is.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    That was my point.:)
     
  9. skypair

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    Dear Combo,

    Welcome to BB! :thumbs:

    I think MAYBE your teacher is confusing water baptism with Spirit baptism (the latter of the 2 you MUST have to be saved). But Spirit baptism is simultaneous and automatic upon faith in Christ during this, the church age.

    It does if you believe that water baptism is the only thing that is necessary.

    It's like a lot of people believe that by baptizing infants, they are saved.

    If you believe that observing the 7 sacraments are necessary for salvation, you are just as lost as the Muslim who observes the "Five Pillars of Islam" in order to be saved by Allah!

    skypair
     
  10. DQuixote

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    Wow. That's a fairly convoluted sentence. It is open to several interpretations. Grace plus works does not invalidate Grace is one of them. Is the teacher saying belief + water baptism + a 2nd & subsequent baptism in the Holy Ghost is the only way to be saved? If so, then he is teaching error. But to say that someone will go to Hell because they DO believe, then simply go thru the other 2 steps, is bogus. He or She, after all, believed to begin with. On the other hand, for one to say that he or she will (or can) only believe after going thru the steps, is also error.

    I'd really like to visit with that teacher.
     
  11. combo_limit

    combo_limit
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    Yeah. This issue isn't actually baptism. To put it better, (as someone already has) the question is this. "Does grace + a work invalidate the gace part?" The teacher would say yes, but I'd have to say no.

    He gave me a sheet of paper with about 20 verses in it. Most were about how we are saved through faith, which both of us already agree on. These two verses were the basis behind his reasoning:

    Romans 11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. BUt if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

    Romans 4:14 "For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:"
     
  12. Sober_Baptist

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    Grace plus works doesn't negate grace.
    It is the natural tendency of man to want to "help" 'ol God out a little, by doing something. Not to say his intentions aren't good, but, being a new convert, it is hard to not want to try to help the Lord along a little. It seems so.....right.....at the time.

    Salud!

    SB
     
  13. tinytim

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    In actuality this teacher is adding works to grace himself...
    He is teaching that one has to believe the right theology perfectly in order to be saved.

    That is adding works to grace...
    Belief in Christ, and belief in grace only.

    I used to believe this way also... until I realized that I was putting a qualification onto grace myself.
     
  14. AAA

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    If a person is trusting in any thing else then Jesus Christ and His shed blood and GRACE to save him or her, then that person will not be saved, because the word believe in John 3:16 means 100% trust, Not 99% and 1% in baptism.

    Trusting in JESUS 99% is the same as NOT trusting in HIM at all!
     
  15. Pipedude

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    Its pretty hard to just "believe" without doing something. In our ritual, if one is under conviction and wants to receive Christ, we tell him to "call upon the name of the Lord." Of course, we are proceeding from a noncalvinist base.

    A person who is under conviction and wants to receive Christ is generally willing to do whatever the soulwinner directs. If the soulwinner says "let's pray and ask God to save you. He said he'd do it if you call upon him," then the penitent will do that. That's how I got saved. I was never under the impression that somewhow I had done my good works by praying and God had rewarded me with salvation.

    Baptism is a scary bugaboo because of the history of persecution; but stripped to its bare elements in something like the Church of Christ doctrine, it is simply the way a soul receives Christ, no different than our custom of walking the aisle, making a public profession, or praying the sinner's prayer. Alexander Campbell was careful to state that the act had no efficacy apart from faith, he just thought that it was the God-ordained method of receiving Christ. (I cannot speak to his doctrine of Holy Spirit conviction, which we understand to be prerequisite to saving faith.) Because it is an outward act and fairly showy, many CoC folks have made it into a sacrament. They trust in their baptism (or, actually, their obedience in getting baptized the right way). But many of our people trust in their sinner's prayer: "I went through the motions and the old account was settled long ago." Both are incorrect and both are perversions, not endorsed by reputable theologians of the respective camps.
     
  16. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Without hearing this guy, it is hard to tell what he means. If someone believes that their baptism saves them, or helps their salvation, then they are not resting in faith alone in Christ alone. They are, therefore, not saved.

    To say that "grace + works doesn't invalidate grace" is to miss the point with respect to salvation. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

    Not at all. We do have to believe right theology to be saved. You can't be saved if you don't believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for sin and sinners. I think this is an attempt to be more Christian than Christ. He is the one who taught us about salvation and we should understand that right knowledge is required for right belief.
     
  17. Bluefalcon

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    I'm not saying that works save anyone. But I am willing to say that faith that produces no works is not a saving faith. A knowledge of the perfect truth is not enough. Asking God to forgive you of your sins but not repenting from your sins is not saving faith. Why? Because true faith means relying wholly on God. True faith means obedience. Faith involves one's whole being, mind, will, heart, actions. By divorcing faith from our whole being, or moving it into a realm of mental consent but separate from our actions which represent our true will and being, we are moving away from true biblical faith and into a non-biblical faith that James describes. It is all or nothing.

    Back to the OP. I'm not sure most in the CoC are depending on "works" to save them. I do think that 60% of Baptists who don't show up to worship anywhere on any given Sunday and who are depending on what some might describe as "faith alone" but which I would term some sort of "mental consent alone", I think some sort of faith reality check is in order. Are they believing with their whole being or not? If not, the reality check will come the moment they pass into eternity.
     

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