Daniel 9:24-27

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by michael-acts17:11, Oct 29, 2011.

  1. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    How do some theologians come to the conclusion that Daniel 9:27 is describing an antichrist? According to verse 26, it is still speaking of the Messiah. When Daniel's 70 weeks are uninterrupted by massive period of time, the end of the Old Law (sacrifice and the oblation) occurs right when Daniel prophesied.

    In Matthew 24 & Mark 13, Christ told his disciples that they would see the abomination of desolation. In Luke 21, He revealed that the desolation would come through invading armies which they would see.

    Without rabbit-trailing into other areas of prophecy, could those who are still dispensationalists please explain how Christ meant something entirely different than what He clearly said?

    "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
    (Dan 9:24-27)
     
  2. beameup

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    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Matt 24:15

    But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Matt 24:20

    The Holy Spirit left a couple of "clues" concerning this private briefing given to the (genetic Israelite) disciples. Obviously this is yet a
    future event as the Temple must be rebuilt and daily sacrifice and oblation resumed.

    Now we know from Maccabees and other sources that Antiochus IV Epiphanes "desolated" the holy place in 168BC - which was a precursor
    of this prophecy in Matt 24. Hanukkah is celebration of the cleansing of the Temple from this abomination (also mentioned in John).
     
    #2 beameup, Oct 29, 2011
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  3. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    This doesn't even come close to answering the question.
     
  4. beameup

    beameup
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    Verse 26 "switches gears" from talking about Messiah to talking about the Prince:
    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary


    Jesus specifically gives credence to Daniel's prophecy. The chapter deals with his coming. But since it is addressed specifically to
    (genetic) Israelite DISCIPLES and concerns the Temple then it is irrelevant to Gentiles (other than providing info on the
    circumstances around Christ's return to the Earth).

    Matthew 24:3
    the disciples came unto him privately, saying,
    [1]Tell us, when shall these things be? and
    [2]what shall be the sign of thy coming,
    [3]and [what shall be the sign] of the end of the world?


    So, as a Gentile, you have to ask yourself "who or what is STANDING in the Holy Place"?

    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STAND in the holy place,
    (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
    - Matt 24:15
     
  5. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    Read verse 24 & 25. The Messiah & the prince are the same person. They also reveal an uninterrupted time of "70 weeks" to make an end of sins & to anoint the Most Holy. Are you still waiting for Christ to make an end of sins? We who are baptized with Christ are free from the curse of the Law & from the power of sin. It is a historical fact that when you keep the fidelity of the 70 weeks, the 70th ushers in the Messiah & His defeat of sin & death. Do you not know that He is also called the Prince of peace? Where does the text of Daniel reveal an "antichrist" or a chasm of time between the 69th & 70th week?
     
    #5 michael-acts17:11, Oct 30, 2011
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  6. beameup

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    So the Angel Gabriel says in vs. 26:
    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

    When did God's people destroy the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (Temple?)?
     
    #6 beameup, Oct 30, 2011
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  7. michael-acts17:11

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    You're still avoiding the text. Verse 25 says "the Messiah the Prince". God has used pagan nations to bring judgement to Israel NUMEROUS times. Tell me how you divide the Messiah & the Prince in verse 25. I used to be an IFB dispensationalist until I studied the Word for myself; without the denominational blinders that allow a person to completely ignore the context & text of Scripture that does not conform to dispie doctrine. Please tell me how you divide the Messiah & the Prince? What part of the text points to an antichrist or a division of the 70weeks timeline?

    I am not a preterist. I believe God sent judgement against Israel in the First Century, but Christ has not yet returned. If you study Daniel 9 without preconceived doctrine, it will challenge your beliefs, but you will conform your beliefs to Scripture.
     
  8. beameup

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    I don't have any "denominational blinders", I'm just reading the text.
    "Anti-Christ" is misleading. He will be a FALSE CHRIST with supernatural
    power and lying signs and wonders, and he will be accepted as a Savior
    of the World by most.

    And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: end of subject
    begin another subject and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

    Two "princes"/Two "messiahs"
    First Messiah mostly rejected by (genetic) Israel [cut-off]
    Second (false) "messiah" accepted by most of (genetic) Israel

    Now, the Temple was destroyed in 70AD by the Romans. "The prince that shall come" will come from those people.

    So we have the timeline from the decree by Artaxerxes Longimanus to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem until Palm Sunday
    when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem. That completes the 69 weeks (of years) of the Prophecy...to the day.

    The city and temple was not destroyed until 70 AD under Titus Vespasian.

    No "prince" has entered the Holy Place in order to desolate it.
     
    #8 beameup, Oct 30, 2011
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  9. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    Still not using Scripture in your rebuttal. Explain how "the Messiah the Prince" is speaking of two different people; with Scripture...preferably with actual text from Daniel 9. I don't follow anyone's doctrine which is not based on actual clearly written Biblical text.
     
  10. kyredneck

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  11. beameup

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    Dan 9:26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: end of subject
    begin another subject Dan 9:26b and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; 70 AD

    Both are referred to by the title "prince", but only the first one is called "messiah" and "prince". It is there in vs. 26 where the transition takes place.

    Then there is a very L-O-N-G space between vs. 26 and vs. 27 since the Temple has not existed for about 2,000 years.

    Dan 9:27 And he [prince] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
    and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, Yet future.

    2 Thes 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth [not stand] in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now I did hear a convoluted argument from a coworker who was a Bahá'u'lláh that convinced her that all this was passed long before the end of the first century. :)
     
    #11 beameup, Oct 30, 2011
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  12. JesusFan

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    Would refer to either Roman general Titus in AD 70, which I do not hold to, or a reference to the Beast to come, false messiah the jews would receive "In his name", as said by Jesus Himself!
     
  13. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11
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    A statement of what you believe without any Scriptural support. How do you separate "the Messiah the Prince"? The verse does not differentiate the two. They are two titles for the same person.
     

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