Dearborn Police: Defending Islam against the Constitution

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by Revmitchell, Jun 26, 2010.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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  2. pinoybaptist

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    Cops anywhere are tasked with maintaining peace and order. They go out of their precincts with instructions from their chiefs of police relayed down the line through their shift NCO's on how they are supposed to do this.

    In Dearborn, giving sworn-in and academy trained police officers the benefit of a doubt, it appears that the method for maintaining peace and order in the city during a Muslim festival which had a permit and was duly approved by city officials was to determine the bounds in which an incendiary situation can be diffused: distribute religious tracts five blocks away from the festival.

    These officers were doing what they are supposed to do: maintain peace and order by not allowing an obviously incendiary situation to turn violent, not because these Acts 17 groups are doing what they are doing, but because there may be certain elements among the Muslims who would think their religion is being violated, and that they are being provoked, and so do what he should not do.

    This is not about American religious liberties being curtailed or trampled on, this is about keeping the peace, and I don't care what these in the Acts 17 group says, or what anyone on this board say, the fact is that their actions ARE (1) provocative and potentially incendiary, even if they they hide behind the guise of gospel tract distribution, (2) CAN be a reason for the violent among the Muslims to harm them, and (3) with regards to their desire to "spread" the gospel among Muslims for whatever purpose, only God knows the truth.

    From what I have seen in many videos, from them themselves, as well as deduce from their own comments and statements, their true motivation was more political, rather than spiritual.

    Their intent was to show that Dearborn is turning into a Muslim-dominated city, and that Dearborn officials in particular, and Americans in general, are being deceived, and that one day this will be to the disadvantage of the city, and in a larger scale, of the country.

    I HAVE NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST THIS PURPOSE, I know how it is when Muslims take over a city, they have done that in not less than two districts of my birth city. Most of them are habitual liars, many are situational liars, and in my country at least, I can say, that the Muslims over there who have taken over the districts I spoke of have turned those districts into crime-ridden, garbage strewn, laundy-hanging-everywhere, eyes- and social sores.

    HOWEVER, to hide behind a facade of "just wanting to share the gospel in a country which is supposed to be free" is a lie, and completely UNCHRISTIAN.

    I quote the following from 1 Peter 2: 17-20 :

    Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
    Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults , ye shall take it patiently ? but if, when ye do well , and suffer for it, ye take it patiently , this is acceptable with God.


    Honour all men, I guess, means respect all men, including Muslims who have applied for, and received, permission from civil magistrates to hold their festival. They have legal permits to do so, and are not violating any rights and precepts of this democratic country, BUT WHAT ARE THEY OF ACTS 17 DOING INSIDE A MUSLIM FESTIVAL IN THE FIRST PLACE, regardless of whether there are signs in legally constructed booths that anyone can come and ask questions ?

    I don't care what reason they give, THEY HAVE DELIBERATELY EXPOSED THEMSELVES TO POSSIBLE HARASSMENT, AND THEY KNOW IT BUT THEY ARE BEING DISHONEST ABOUT IT, and paint themselves persecuted by claiming all they're trying to do is to spread the gospel in a supposedly American city, violating one of the verses of Scripture above: "For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully", and expose themselves to the next question by the same Scripture: "For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently ?". THEY HAD IT COMING TO THEM.

    I have thought about my position regarding this Dearborn incident for a while now, that maybe I have been too condemning of those whose side I am supposedly on, too, but I keep coming back to square one: WHAT ARE YOU DOING INSIDE A MUSLIM FESTIVAL, CHRISTIAN ?

    Those people are not dumb, they know that your questions will be designed to attack their core beliefs, and what they have got better than you do, is they are not afraid to lie, cheat, steal, or kill for their religion, while you, Christian, are.

    So I cannot but contradict their claims that they were simply there to glorify God and spread the gospel.

    They had a political agenda, and like I said, I'm fine with that, but let's not drag Jesus Christ, His blood, and His glory into that filth, and say it is a sin to take the Lord's Name in vain, because that is what it amounts to, anyway.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    I suppose the same could be said of those who preached the gospel in acts.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Well, first off, Paul preached IN THE SYNAGOGUES, mostly. He didn't go to the pagan temples and the pagan celebrations to preach there and to tell them how wrong their religions are. Here are excerpts from Acts 17, from which these guys take their name"

    I suppose it goes without saying that Paul sought out discussion mainly with those who already have some belief in them about Monotheism, and with those who were polytheists and pagans but in a setting where discussion is public, not in a private festival like a Muslim festival in Dearborn, Michigan.

    These Acts 17 guys set up their organization for the purpose of preaching the gospel with the end in view of suffering persecution for it. I mean, that's fine if they believe they must be persecuted or must undergo persecution for preaching the gospel, but to BEG it ?

    And then to cry "momma, look what they did to us" when they get what they are sure to get for putting themselves deliberately into such a situation ?

    I have a close friend in my Arminian days, a hunchback, five feet tall, 100 lbs., astigmatism and all, who started a house church right smack in the middle of a district that eventually became overrun by "peaceful" Muslims who then started threatening him with death, pelted his mission house with rocks and feces, rubbed pig's blood on his door, harassed his wife and kids, and let me tell you, Rev., in my country, the police motto in those times were "let the bad guys fight, we come when they're dead".

    Now, THAT is persecution in the Name of Christ.
    He didn't walk into it, he didn't seek it out, he didn't provoke it.
    But, Dearborn ?
    I'm sorry, and not that I am a Doctrine of Gracer or anything of that sort.
    I just don't buy they were persecuted.
     
  5. Revmitchell

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    So we should only preach the gospel to those who have a monotheistic view of God?
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    No, but the basic idea of evangelism is proclaiming the good news to those for whom the news IS good, directly in line with not casting your pearls before swine.

    All I'm saying about this Dearborn incident is "I will not be played into sympathizing wrongfully".

    I think it was wrong of them to even be INSIDE that Muslim festival therefore exposing themselves to harm and, what they call "harassment" by either Muslim militants in that festival, and by the cops who were only trying to avoid any reason for any altercation or confrontation from happening, whether it be from Christian groups, Muslims, or just plain rednecks.
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    So you think we should qualify people to see who will accept it before we share it? Where does scripture say "to whom the news is good"?




    I am sorry for your error but they were not "inside that Muslim festival". They were outside on the public street. Not that is matters.
     
    #7 Revmitchell, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2010
  8. Jedi Knight

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    Acts 17:22-23 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For when I came by, I was looking at the things to which you give worship, and I saw an altar with this writing on it, TO THE GOD OF WHOM THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE. Now, what you, without knowledge, give worship to, I make clear to you.
    :jesus: That said if they do not want to hear the truth and are hostile.....take the message to someone else. Dust your feet off! Matthew 10:23 So when they persecute you in one town, flee to the next". I know they feel they have rights to stick around,but the Muslims are only "seeker friendly" and not truth friendly. Muslims hostile actions speaks volumes about their false religion and the cops don't want them to stir up a hornets nest "thus disturbing the peace".
     
    #8 Jedi Knight, Jun 26, 2010
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  9. Pastor Larry

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    First, it was an Arab festival, not a Muslim festival.

    Second, I have heard first hand reports from many who were there passing out tracts that they were not harassed because they obeyed the law. They had great freedom to talk to people. Word is that this group was seeking a confrontation. The other groups who were ministering the gospel received no trouble.

    So I don't know what all the story is, but I know that many people were there passing out tracts and talking to people and had no problem at all.
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    Rev., I never said the words that you are putting into my mouth. What are you, a Muslim Rev ? (lol). I said the good news is for people to whom the news of a risen Savior and a finished salvation IS good news.




    I am sorry for YOUR error, but they were inside that Muslim festival, unless the booth they went into is outside the perimeters of the Muslim festival.

    here's one video that shows they ARE inside the perimeters of the festival, got into an argument with security, had their camera's blocked, etc.


    here's an excerpt from their own website:

    Now, if you watched the video, tell me if the Muslim was wrong in saying that the guy with the camera needs his permission to be videotaped.

    These Acts 17 guys knew they will be confronted.

    They were indignant about what they feel is the imposition of Sharia law, which isn't even the purpose of the gospel, their concern wasn't about "lost souls" among Muslims who must hear the gospel.
     
  11. Revmitchell

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    I asked a question, which was clear by the way, I did not put words in your mouth. So what you are saying is we should only share the gospel with those that will like it? You did not find that in scripture. I suppose you leave muslims to go to hell.






    Apparently you did not watch the video in the op. You are incorrect.
     
    #11 Revmitchell, Jun 26, 2010
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  12. JohnDeereFan

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    Sorry, but you don't deny one group their Constitutionally protected rights just because you're afraid another group might cause trouble.

    Again, you don't deny one group their Constitutionally protected rights just because you're afraid another group might cause trouble

    If the Muslims are causing trouble, then you arrest them.

    Really? How is it not about curtailing religious liberty by stopping a group of law abiding Americans from exercising their Constitutionally protected rights to pass out Gospel tracts because you're afraid of what somebody else may do?

    How so? Do you have any evidence that they planned to be violent or were just "hiding behind the guise of Gospel tract distribution" for some nefarious purpose?

    First of all, Islam is a religion of peace, remember?

    Second, that you think one group might do something wrong is not a valid reason to oppress another group.

    Again, you're implying that they are not sincere but, instead, have some other purpose. Do youhave any evidence for this?

    Evidence, please.

    If that was their purpose, then the Dearbornistan police succeeded on their behalf.

    Then why are you carrying their water for them?

    I thought you said you lived in Virginia.

    Again, you're accusing these people of lying and you haven't shown any evidence. You're bearing false witness (note to liberals: the Bible says that bearing false witness is a sin).

    By your logic, does this mean that our church's evangelism team shouldn't go to NASCAR races to hand out tracts and share the Gospel? Are you saying that we should no longer have a booth at the fair to hand out tracts and share the Gospel? Are you really saying that we should no longer go to the gay pride parade and hand out tracts and share the Gospel?

    As President Reagan so famously said, "There you go again".

    You keep on making that accusation, but have yet to show even the slightest shred of evidence for it.

    Yeah! Darn those Americans, thinking they have the right to peacably assemble and speak out about religion!

    Could you please show me what verse says that Muslims don't need to hear the Gospel?

    Without any evidence.

    And your slander and bearing false witness isn't a sin?

    Let me ask you this: do you believe that Christian missionaries ought to go to Muslim countries?
     
    #12 JohnDeereFan, Jun 27, 2010
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  13. JohnDeereFan

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    So then, in order to be logically consistent, you must also be against Christian missionaries going to Muslim countries.

    Was there any sort of notice posted that said that non-Muslims were not welcome?
     
  14. JohnDeereFan

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    Under the law, he's wrong.

    I take it you've never done street evangelism or open air preaching. You always run the risk of being "confronted". I've had police try to chase me off. I've had a group of Hassidic Jews cuss me out and throw a bottle at my head. I had a homosexual get about two inches from my face and start screaming at me while I was preaching (which was kind of odd, since I never said one word about homosexuality).

    And you think that's bad (well, obviously you don't...I'm sure you think I was just asking for it and got what was coming to me), go to youtube and look up some videos by my buddy, Tony Miano. He's actually had people come out of the crowd to take a swing at him.

    Did you know that when Paul was arrested, the very first thing he did was to appeal to his rights as a Roman citizen? Why was it OK for him to do that, but wrong for this evangelism team to point out that their Constitutionally protected rights were being violated?
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Can you cite the law where a private citizen may be videotaped even when he says he doesn't want to ? honest question, and if there is such a law, then I will admit I am wrong.


    Sir, we can sit by the fireplace and swap stories all night long about your experiences and my experiences "back in the day".
    But what will it benefit either of us, except to feed our flesh ?
    Been there, done that.
    Have you ever had the wife of a recent convert come to you secretly in your study to ask for forgiveness because her husband told her that TWICE he waited for you at that dark corner down the street where you get off the public vehicle with a long knife in his hand and the intent to kill you ?
    Been there. Done that.
    That was a Muslim festival with permits from the local officials. It was a legal festivity. These guys have been there the previous year. Here's the link, if you care:

    Arab Festival 2009: Sharia in the US

    This is where the problem about cameras, etc., happened. It goes without saying that because of this incident last year the Muslim organizers have "profiled" them, and so did Dearborn police.

    This year, they were back, that inspite of what happened last year. This time they were handcuffed, and spent the night in jail. Here's the video:

    Arrested for Being Christian Preachers at Dearborn Arab Festival 2010

    So they, as far as I am concerned, were provoking what they already knew is likely to happen, and which happened.
    In this case, personally, I refuse to be played into sympathizing with them.

    The Bible says we are to live peaceably with all men (Romans 12:18). How can they, as professing Christians, live peaceably with all men, when they cannot even live peaceably with their neighbors and let them be FOR ONE DAY ? Just this ONE DAY (or week) of a duly permitted Muslim festival, JUST BECAUSE THEY, AS MEMBERS OF A DIFFERENT FAITH, HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONALLY GUARANTEED RIGHT TO (1) TAKE PICTURES, (2) DISTRIBUTE TRACTS, (3) STAND IN A PUBLIC PLACE OUTSIDE OF THE MUSLIM FESTIVAL ?

    I am not going to judge you on what you did which you related but I do judge that these Acts 17 people were on the wrong. They've been there last year, they've not been received well, they came back this year, therefore they provoked whatever transpired.

    That is NOT evangelizing, and they were NOT arrested for being, as their video title suggests, "Christian Preachers". They were booed and jeered by the Dearborn Muslims and handcuffed, arrested, and thrown in jail by the Dearborn Police because they are identified troublemakers at the worst, or at the least, their presence is potentially incendiary, by virtue of the two groups' experience with them last year.




    Because the venue to challenge the legality of whether their constitutionally protected rights were violated is the courts, NOT YOUTUBE.COM, and certainly not EBLOGGER.

    Paul appealed his rights as a Roman citizen TO THE CENTURION, not to the public that tried to lynch him, and from then on, his rights to appeal before Cesar or Cesar's representative.
    What else do you want to know ?
     
    #15 pinoybaptist, Jun 27, 2010
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  16. menageriekeeper

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    Pastor Larry, I think this was missed in the conversations I've read thus far. Do you have any documentation of those who were NOT harassed while working this festival?
     
  17. Pastor Larry

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    To be clear, it is an Arab festival, not a Muslim festival. Perhaps a small difference, but a difference nonetheless.

    Read here.
     
  18. menageriekeeper

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    Thank You Pastor Larry. As usual, we are only hearing one side of this story. The one that sells the most copy.
     
  19. RAdam

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    The apostles didn't seek out confrontations and persecution. They merely preached the gospel where they were led to. In fact, the unbelieving Jews would chase Paul out of a city and then follow him to the next city and chase him out of it also. At Ephesus one time there was a public gathering and Paul wanted to go in to them. He was advised against it and consented to that advice. It was a good thing he did. Paul, when he arrived at Jerusalem that last time, he didn't seek out a confrontation. Instead, he went on the advice of James to the temple to perform a basic rite. There he was arrested being falsely accused of bringing a gentile into the temple. Peter and John weren't seeking a confrontation when they preached the gospel at the temple. Paul didn't walk into the Greek worship services telling them how vain their idolatry was, but instead walked through what doors God opened: first at the synagogue, then in the markets, and finally at Mars' Hill.

    I don't know their intent, but if they were seeking a controversy, they were wrong for it in God's eyes.
     

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