Death vs. Resurrection

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by LandonL, Feb 29, 2004.

  1. LandonL

    LandonL
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    It would seem to me that the question of which is more integral to our salvation has come up on another thread in reference to Gibson's movie _The Passion of the Christ_. I know what I think, but I'm just wondering what some of you people think about this.

    I'm not asking this to arouse a whole lot of vehement theological debate. I just want to maybe kick the idea around a bit, see if someone (hopefully me) might learn something. [​IMG]

    So which is -more- important to our salvation? The Death of Christ or his Resurrection?

    Respectfully,
    --Landon
     
  2. Yelsew2

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    Presuming you are speaking specifically of the death of Jesus, and not death in general. I would have to say that Resurrection to life is the single most important aspect of Christianity. It is that which we as believers HOPE For, but Cannot yet see, and is therefore our faith. Otherwise if the center of Christianity is the Death of Christ, then Christianity would be a religion of death and not what it is, a LIFE STYLE, a living system of faith.

    It is futile to hope for the Atonement of sins. Every sin ever committed or to be committed by man has been atoned for. already, even before man of this age commits sin, and we know that all men continue to sin.

    Now, that is not to play down the Death of Christ, because without the atoning death of Jesus, man could not have life. Because, the penalty for sin, and all have sinned, is death. However, Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself, and paid the penalty ONCE, for ALL sins of ALL times, thus covering the entirety of humanity with His precious blood.

    NOW, without a penalty to pay for our sins, because that penalty has already been paid by Jeus, man can, through faith have everlasting life. So, then the Death of Christ, made everlasting life for man possible.

    If Jesus had not been resurrected through the power of God, our faith in Jesus would be faith in a dead man. There is no salvation in a dead man, but there is in the Living Son of God, the Christ.

    So, eternal life was made possible through the death of Jesus, but Life Everlasting (Salvation) is only possible through the LIVING Son of God, because it is he that saves those who choose to believe in HIM.

    That is why I call Mel Gibson's movie "The Atonement of Christ. The movie depicts the very act of Atonement, but only hints at the resurrection. I truly hope that Gibson will follow up with "The Resurrection of the Christ", and will do so with greater attention to scriptual detail. But if he does, we already know that whatever he produces will have the Catholic interpretation.
     
  3. LaRae

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    They are inseparable and equally important....it's like asking someone do you like to breath in or breath out better?


    LaRae
     
  4. Yelsew2

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    LaRae,
    It takes no faith to have atonement, but it does take faith in the Resurrection to have everlasting life. And Yes, they are inseparable in that the atonement enables the everlasting life.

    It takes no energy to exhale, but it does take energy to inhale. Exhaling is the default condition of respiration in man. One need only stop breathing and the default condition gains dominance.

    That is not true for Salvation, you simply cannot stop 'faithing' and have everlasting life. The opposite of 'faithing' is the dominant condition of man, which leads to man's destruction in the lake of fire.
     
  5. Helen

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    It would have been REALLY hard for Jesus to be Resurrected has He not been dead first, but nevertheless, Paul tells us that it is the Resurrection that is the most important:

    But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses abut God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more thn all men.

    Paul, in his first letter to Corinth, 15:12-19
     
  6. Brother Adam

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    That passage does not say that the Resurrection is more important, only that the Resurrection was necessary. Both the Resurrection and the Suffering/death are equally as important. However, we were not saved because of his resurrection, we were saved because of his sacrifice.
     
  7. Helen

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    According to Paul, Adam, if Christ was not raised, then we are false witnesses and our hope is in vain. I am not denying the value of Christ's death as atonement for all our sins, but I am repeating simply what Paul says about the crucial anchor of the Christian faith and hope.
     
  8. Yelsew2

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    Not so, you see both the death and the resurrection of Jesus could have gone unrecorded with no impact on any but those who were physically there.

    We are not saved by His death, and we are not saved by His resurrection, we are saved because we have faith in HIM. His death made it possible for mankind to have life, His resurrection demonstrated His power over death which gave us HOPE of our resurrecting from physical death to be with him.

    FAITH and FAITH ALONE is all that man can have whereby man can be saved into everlasting life (John 3:16), Jesus did all the work, we must have the FAITH. Without the resurrection, our faith, the substance of that for which we HOPE the evidence that what we cannot yet see as a reality, would in fact be in a dead man! There is no everlasting life in a dead man! Therefore the resurrection is what Christian faith is based upon. The atonement (death of Jesus), makes it everlasting life for man possible, but to have faith in death is not a very good thing to have faith in, for it is appointed unto man once to die, then the judgement. Everlasting life with Jesus is what I have faith for, and Jesus is who I have faith in.
     
  9. Brother Adam

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    You are focusing too much on a particular passage to the neglect of scripture as a whole. Yes, of course, we are saved by faith working through love, no one denies that. However, in the course of Salvic history, we become a redeemed humanity with Christ's atoning work through his suffering and death. This sacrifice is absolutely crucial to our redemption. It remains that it is as important as His resurrection. Satan has lost the battle at His death. It is not a question of "Will he be resurrected?" as we know he is resurrected.

    And while we are all members of a redeemed humanity, we must still each recieve the New Covenant into our lives in a personal way. We each personally remain accountable before God and must be "saved".
     
  10. vaspers

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    Look at Romans 10:9 confess Jesus as Lord AND believe that God hath RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, thou shalt be saved.

    Death and resurrection are really one unit to me. You need both, like body and soul, hot and cold.

    A resurrection assumes a death, otherwise no need to resurrect. So both are equally important I think.
     
  11. Yelsew2

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    Brother Adam,
    I am not sure what you are saying, but it seems to me that you are equating Salvation to the death of Jesus on the cross, which is saying that atonement for sins is salvation.

    Our salvation is not faith through love. It is Faith in the one who loves us. He looked favorably upon us and gave us His Son as a gift of grace, that would take away the penalty for sins from mankind. This wonderful gift of God declared that it is by faith in him that we are saved while God's grace prevails.

    Granted, Salvation, which is Eternal life to the believer, is not possible without the death of Jesus, because he took our place in death. But without the resurrection, we could have no hope! No one puts their hope in the dead!

    You also seem to be saying that all humanity is redeemed. Humanity is not redeemed which is a past tense form of redeem, but the penalty for sin has been removed from humanity by the Once-for-All acceptance of that penalty by our Lord and Savior Jesus.

    By saying that humanity is redeemed, you are telling the world that you believe in false doctrine. It is only those members of humanity who believe in God and put their trust in God, who are redeemed because it is they who have faith in God.
     
  12. Brother Adam

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    On the other hand you are using exclusionist theology. You've read John 3:16 and thus are trying to force all scripture to work solely around that verse. It doesn't work like that.

    "Redeemed humanity" does not refer to "everyone is saved and going to heaven no matter what".

    First, try viewing the message of God's revelation through the scriptures as a whole. God has always dealt with His creation through a covenant.

    In the Old Testament a covenant was a way for God to be in communion with His chosen people. These covenants were carried out through Mosaic Law, of which the Ten Commandments is a part. The people were to approach God through the Mosaic Law, and God resided with the people in the Tabernacle. In the Old Testament God resided in the Holy of Holies. Only the high priest could enter, once a year, to offer atonement for the sins of the people.

    Throughout all this, the people had been promised a coming Messiah who would free them. While the Jewish people still wait for a political Messiah, Jesus came and offered a New Covenant with a New Law (Matthew 5-7). With Christ's atoning sacrifice the New Covenant takes affect. Only this covenant is unconditional- it covers all people, Jewish and Gentile. Through Christ, the human race has been redeemed. The cross, as you know is the central focus point of all of history, of all of time.

    However, being part of a redeemed humanity, we must still enter into the New Covenant. The sign of entering into the covenant is no longer concussion, as it was to enter the Jewish covenant. Paul goes through a long discourse on this in Acts. The sign is now baptism, as Christ commands that all people be discipled and baptized.

    This covenant is no longer one of meritorious sacrifice, but one of faith. The faith however cannot be an empty and dead faith, but must be an active and alive faith. Saying "oh, yes, I believe in Jesus" isn't enough as the Epistle of James tells us. Christ must become the center of our lives and we must receive him into our hearts and minds.
     
  13. Brother Adam

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    Christ gave us a New Covenant~

    Luke 22:20 (ESV)
    And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

    Hebrews 8:6-10 (KJV)
    But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    ~A Covenant of Faith~

    Ephes. 2:8-9
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    1 John 5:1-5
    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    ~Requiring a sacrifice~

    Romans 3:23-26
    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; [26] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    ~He gave a way to enter the New Covenant~

    John 3:5 (KJV)
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Acts 2:38 (KJV)
    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    ~A way to leave to choose to reject Him~

    James 2:17
    Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    1 John 5:16-17 (KJV)
    If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    ~He gave us a way to be nourished~

    Matthew 26:17-30 (KJV)
    Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? [18] And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. [19] And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. [20] Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. [21] And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. [22] And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? [23] And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me. [24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. [25] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
    [26] And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. [27] And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. [29] But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. [30] And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

    John 6:47-58
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. [48] I am that bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. [52] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. [56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. [58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.


    ~And to be forgiven of sin within the covenant~

    James 5:16 (KJV)
    Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    Matthew 16:19 (KJV)
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    ~And this those within the covenant are a family, as all in the covenant are adopted sons of God~

    John 17:20-21 (KJV)
    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    Acts 2:42 (KJV)
    And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

    1 Cor. 10:16-17 (KJV)
    The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? [17] For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
     
  14. Brother Adam

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    Sorry, I ran that through spell checker and it slaughtered my sentence. Should be circumcision
     
  15. Yelsew2

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    If one is circumcised as an adult, it's the same as concussion.

    There, you said it again! The human race has not been redeemed! The covenant has been changed! The Penalty associated with sin has been removed from the human race. Humanity has not been redeemed! It is now possible for each member of the human race to be redeemed (saved) thru faith in the Redeemer who is the living Son of God, the Messiah.

    There, You said it again! The true sign of the new covenant is FAITH in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah, which is Holy Spirit baptism. Water Baptism is the visible sign of one's inner faith.

    ON THIS WE AGREE! Bless you Brother.
     
  16. Brother Adam

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    I think our barrier here is language. [​IMG]

    Let's start here:

    What was the effect of Adam and Eve's first sin?
     
  17. BobRyan

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    Isnt that like asking "Which side of the coin is needed to have a whole coin"? You "need both".

    But as to whether it is "legit" to mention "only the suffering and death - with very slight reference to the resurrection and even "no mention" of the ascension...

    The gospels make no mention of the ascension or the day of Pentecost.

    1Cor 11 says "For as OFTEN as you eat this bread and drink this cup you show the Lord's DEATH until He comes". In other words - celebrating communion was viewed by the NT saints as a memorial of His death.

    (Which leads you to believe they may have been doing this primarily on Friday evening at first).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Kiffin

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    The Death and Resurrection are inseparable and cannot be separated. They form one thread.
     

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