Debate proposed

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GraceSaves, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Just thought I'd throw out an invitation for a debate on the the Eucharist. I'd be most interested in discussing the Catholic position versus the Lutheran position, though it might be interesting to do it with another belief.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
  2. John Gilmore

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    A Lutheran/Catholic debate in a Baptist discussion group? Such a debate would be timely since the apostate Roman church and the apostate Lutheran World Federation (LWF) are discussing joint altar fellowship. The LWF in its agreement with Rome has denied the gospel of justification by faith in Christ alone and is prepared to deny the gospel of the Holy Supper.

    They made the sacrament which they should accept from God, namely, the body and blood of Christ, into a sacrifice and have offered it to the selfsame God... Furthermore, they do not regard Christ's body and blood as a sacrifice of thanksgiving, but as a sacrifice of works in which they do not thank God for His grace, but obtain merits for themselves and others and first and foremost, secure grace. Thus Christ has not won grace for us, but we want to win grace ourselves through our works by offering to God His Son's body and blood. This is the true and chief abomination and the basis of all blasphemy in the papacy.Admonition Concerning the Sacrament, Martin Luther, 1530

    Under the papacy, the mass has become a sacrifice for the sins of the living and the dead. This is a denial of the gospel which teaches that Christ's one sacrifice has made full atonement for all sins: "By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are santified. . .Now, where remission of these [sins] is, there is no more offering for sin." Heb. 10:14,18 The Eucharist is a gift of grace that we receive by faith in Christ alone not a sacrifice for sins.

    [ June 19, 2003, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  3. thessalonian

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    This is a denial of the gospel which teaches that Christ's one sacrifice has made full atonement for all sins: "By one offering He hath perfected forever them that are santified.

    So John, if 2000 years ago Jesus did it ALL, why do you have to repent today? Could it be because that grace he earned 2000 years ago has to be applied to your life today, brought forward so to speak? The same concept applies to the Mass. It is that same sacrifice brought forward or re-presneted so that his grace is applied to our lives today. Thus your Heb 10 verse is missaplied (by you). We don't deny it.

    Blessings
     
  4. servant4him

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    The wine becomes Jesus's blood when swallowed, or in shorter terms, consecration.
    The unleavened bread becomes Jesus's body, another part of consecration. Once you have eaten and drinken of the body and blood then you are to stand up, bow to the alter, and walk away.
    This is how the Eucharist is performed in the Evangelical Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
    Communion is the second sacrament, along side with Baptism. The Rite of Baptism, and the Sacrament of the Alter.
     
  5. John Gilmore

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    It is finished. The Lamb of God has taken away the sins of the world. We are freely forgiven and justified by grace through the faith that is given by the Holy Spirit not by any sacrifice we offer up to God. Christ, our High Priest, has offered up Himself once as the perfect sacrifice for us all:

    But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.Heb. 7:24-28

    The sacrifice of the Mass robs men of confidence in the total sufficiency of Christ and leads them to trust in their merits. Even after death, Christ's perfect sacrifice is not enough. Masses must be offered up even for the dead:

    The Eucharistic sacrifice is also offered for the faithful departed who 'have died in Christ but are not yet wholly purified' so that they may be able to enter into the light and peace of Christ. Catechism of the Catholic Church

    [ June 19, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  6. John Gilmore

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    The Body and Blood of Christ is distributed and received. Please check your Confessions (Formula of Concord, Epitome, Art. VII). You are expressing a view that is not Lutheran.
     
  7. Briguy

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    I have quoted this before. Luther once said "Jesus is present in the bread and wine the same way he is present in my soup" Luther talked about the promise being the difference.

    Just thought I would throw that tidbit in.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  8. Carson Weber

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    The first heresies involved a lack of faith with regard to the Eucharist, so why should we expect for the Protestant heresy to not fail with regard to faith in this central aspect of the Christian mystery?

    "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

    The docetists (whom Igantius is speaking of) were dualists, and therefore regarded the flesh as evil. So, God could not really have taken up a physical body in the Incarnation. It only "appeared" that he did. With this premise, the docetists consequently do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of Jesus Christ.

    Igantius' Eucharistic Christology falls right in line with orthodox Christianity even up until the present day for those who adhere to the faith of the apostles.
     
  9. Rakka Rage

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    not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh != deny the gift of God
     
  10. John Gilmore

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    The Gospel teaches us that the divine essence is not changed into the human nature, but that the two natures, unchanged, are personally united in one Christ.

    Paul in his epistle, describes how, in the Holy Supper, two substances, the natural bread and the true natural body of Christ are present together. This union of the Body and Blood of Christ with the bread and wine is not a personal union, as with the two natures in Christ, but a sacramental union.

    Scripture, as noted in earlier posts, rejects any papal notion of the sacrament as a sacrifice for sin. We are saved, not by masses for the living and the dead, but by the precious Body that was broken for us and the precious Blood that was shed for us. In the sacrament, Christ offers us that same Body and Blood, not as a work by which we merit grace "ex opere operato", but as a gift by which we receive grace by faith alone.

    [ June 19, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  11. Carson Weber

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    The Gospel teaches us that the divine essence is not changed into the human nature, but that the two natures, unchanged, are personally united in one Christ.

    Nowhere in the Bible will you find your above definition. This definition is a formulation made at Chalcedon by Catholic bishops in 451 A.D. from their interpretation of various disparate passages of Scripture.

    Paul in his epistle, describes how, in the Holy Supper, two substances, the natural bread and the true natural body of Christ are present together.

    Nowhere in the Pauline epistles will you find a technical explanation of how the bread and Christ's human nature (which, btw, is hypostatically united to the divine nature) are united. This is your interpretation of Paul.

    Paul says, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks damnation upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." (1 Cor 11)

    Again, that's damnation.

    Scripture, as noted in earlier posts, rejects any papal notion of the sacrament as a sacrifice for sin.

    Christ's human nature = a sacrifice
    Eucharist = Christ's human nature
    Eucharist = a sacrifice

    if a = b & c = a, then c = b.

    The issue isn't whether the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The issue is whether the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    "Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).
     
  12. John Gilmore

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    Nowhere in the Bible will you find your above definition. This definition is a formulation made at Chalcedon by Catholic bishops in 451 A.D. from their interpretation of various disparate passages of Scripture.

    Does the Catholic Church also hold the copyright to the Trinity?

    Nowhere in the Pauline epistles will you find a technical explanation of how the bread and Christ's human nature (which, btw, is hypostatically united to the divine nature) are united.

    Agreed.

    Paul says, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks damnation upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died." (1 Cor 11)

    Again, that's damnation.



    Agreed.

    The issue isn't whether the Eucharist is a sacrifice. The issue is whether the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    There are many Catholics and Lutherans who agree with you. They are pushing for "Eucharistic hospitality" between the two denominations. But consider the character of your suitor, the Lutheran World Federation. The U.S. representative of the LWF is the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA). The ELCA has full fellowship with Protestant sects who deny the Real Presence. Are you really comfortable communing with people who commune with people who deny the Real Presence?

    [ June 20, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  13. Carson Weber

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    Hi John,

    You asked, "Are you really comfortable communing with people who commune with people who deny the Real Presence?"

    I'm not comfortable with communing with anyone who is not Catholic because it is strictly prohibited by the positive law of the Church, and this will not change. The Eucharist is the sign and sacrament of unity, and the reception of the Eucharist in a Catholic Church when one does not profess the faith is essentially, a lie. It's saying "I am one with you", when you are really not one with your brothers and sisters. You're "separated", "divided", "schismatic". The faith is one, undivided, a unity.
     
  14. John Gilmore

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    Those Catholics and Lutherans who consider joint communion to be impossible, consider this. 50 years ago, Catholic and Lutheran clergy refused to pray with Christians outside their own respective denominations. Today, Roman Catholic cardinals and Lutheran district presidents pray with the clergy of pagan religions. If 50 years could produce such revolutionary changes in prayer fellowship, what changes in eucharistic fellowship can be expected in the next 50 years?

    Besides, does the LWF, having abandoned sola scriptura and sola fide, really wish to remain separated from the Roman church? A report by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity, "The Apostolicity of the Church," is due out in 2004.

    [ June 20, 2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     
  15. John Gilmore

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    I agree. This is the teaching of scripture and the Church Catholic.

    [ June 20, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
     

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